Still laughing Josh glanced at others around him to see if there was anyone else enjoying the funny side of the class but as he could observe there was no one else laughing. Or at least he could not see anyone else laughing from where he sat.

Meh.

While the other students spoke one by one, the Gryffindor boy finally stopped laughing and started to look at his classmates instead wondering where his friends were. Aha! His dark eyes spotted Simon sitting there. He seemed to be focused on the class like the others. Ha. Someone had to change that. So opening his little notebook he ripped a little piece of paper from it, rolled it to make sure that it would find its target and threw it at the Quidditch Captain.

Hehe.

As the professor spoke to him the boy tried to stop laughing in order to pay attention to what he was saying and when finally he managed to keep a half serious face the Gryffindor stood up and took a deep breath to answer the question.

''Well... professor'' he began ''Everybody knows they practice dark magic as my classmates mentioned before. And dark magic or anything dark is for cowards. Because being occupied with dark stuff is a way to keep themselves away from the things they considered threatening for them. And this is something that cowards would do instead of facing them.'' Was this enough? He did not know. However he grinned at the Headmaster when he finished his words and sat back.

Hahahaha.

This class was Josh's favourite so far. He did not know why but it did not matter. There was no need for finding a reason because the Gryffindor was enjoying it and that was what he thought important. But gradually he was getting bored of the long speeches of other students so he was about to focus his attention on something else to busy himself like finding where Evelyn was when he heard someone adressing to him.

Looking at that way the boy grinned again the moment he spotted Salander speaking to him. ''Oh really?'' then he asked cheerfully ''I don't know what Severus Snape messed with but if he had been famous with his courage like you say it would be a common knowledge that he was a Gryffindor''

Jaina wrote down teh other wizards that he mentioned thinking that these would be placed on the board too. She listened to him speak. Wow, she thought, there is no way I would be able to impress him now. She put her head on her desk and prayed for class to end....and fast.

Satine turned towards the next voice that mentioned Hitler after her and smiled shaking her head..."O you do bring up a good point of view...maybe those type of peeps like Hitler even had Dark Arts Wizards skilled in Obliviating other's minds..." she felt a shiver go up her spine..."That's sad and frightening all at once."

"Problem is... like, all Dark magic is illegal, which I think is the cornerstone to it being such a terrible thing to most people," Jake suggested, rocking back on his chair as he thought. "Maybe that's why some people end up doing it... because it's forbidden, ya know? But it's also very powerful stuff. Deep down in everyone is a need for recognition and power, though sometimes people never feel it. I think the bad wizards, whatever that means, are those who use Dark magic to get to their goal, getting rid of anyone who stands in their way."

Looking over his shoulder at Sabel, Jake cocked his head slightly. "Not sure what you mean by 'its mark'. You mean, like... something that could come back and be used against you orrrr...?" He left that bit open.

"But... all in all... I think that to be Dark in the absolute worst sense of the word... one would be proud of the label of 'evil', and do things to obtain the label whether directly or not, as well.. I think that's what all of these people have in common," Jake pointed out, gesturing to the board. "They revelled in it."

That voice was like nails on a chalkboard to Jake. His eye twitched once as he glanced out of the window before turning to Josh. "Just because someone is famed for courage it doesn't mean they were a Gryffindor. Same with any house. Plus, courage was only a part of how he became famous. Fact is, he WAS extremely brave, but he WAS a Slytherin as well."

Facts, Josh. Straighten them out.

Or open your mind.

Bam.

Satine turned towards a voice and a comment that caught her attention...she wasn't sure if she should voice her thoughts or not since she was coming into the conversation in the middle, but oooo well here goes...

She smiled towards the boy, "Sorry to interrupt and I know I'm probably coming in at the end of the convo and don't know the whole story, but...." she paused for a moment and then continued..."I agree with you that many do enjoy the label of 'evil' and even strive to maintain and personify that label...but I think sometimes peeps are thrust into that world and don't know any better such as people born into a world of Dark Arts...it's sad but that's all they know and that's all they believe in...they have a choice to change...but why would they change if they don't see anything wrong with..." she shook her head back and forth.

His eyes went back to Jake as the boy asked for clarification. "I mean mark as in, a scar that is not physical. A lesion that is unseen. When you lie for example, you 'scar' yourself, mentally, personally, behaviorally. You become more inclined to lie, you feel regret that never leaves, you make more lies to cover up the first and create a snowball effect. Each one obviously depends on circumstance, but the point is the same. Each action like that leaves something behind, a residue that changes who you are, that affects who you are, the more and more you do it. Perhaps that is what is meant by 'Dark' label."

Folding his hands between his knees, he leaned forward a little to consider Jake, watching him closely. "Proud of the label 'evil'? Doesn't that seem strange though? I don't think anyone wants to be 'evil'. From our perceptive they are, and they seem to be in glorious satisfaction because of it. But how are we to know that they do not view us as evil, as those that are against us as evil? When we do an act that is deemed 'wrong', it is often because we believed it was the right one. Or we didn't care. But we did not look in the mirror and smile at how 'evil' we were by doing it, at the vileness of it."

A slight shrug left his shoulders. "Maybe some do...but I think for most, it is not that simple, and I think Satine brings up a good point. Why should the definition of an evil man be so black and white if the definition of the Dark Arts is so grey?"

Returning the smile, she went back to twirling her quill. "Agree to disagree with the practicing as well then. And your right, I would never use any type of magic for the wrong reasons. I think that's what separates good wizards for dark ones as well. Will power."

"I guess the circumstance is just another factor that helps to decide what makes magic or a person dark." Her eyes fell on Sabel, who had been surprisingly quiet for most of the discussion. "I guess that's true though, no matter what, it will still leave a mark." What kind of mark, she couldn't say, but his words, along with the whole discussion, did have her thinking that maybe she should take a trip to the library after this.

"Society forces people to live a certain way. We just happened to be born into this one. We go to a school that pretty much enforces the lighter magic as good. Some stray. But if they truly don't know any different or see anything wrong with what they're doing, then they see evil as 'good'. The term becomes just another word... a synonym. A badge of honour. They are only seen as evil when their exploits interfere with the 'other society'," Jake actually made finger quotes there. He didn't believe that half the terms he was using were right, but they were the simplest way of explaining. "I mean when people KNOW what they are doing is generally percieved as immoral and so wrong, like murdering an innocent, and still do it, because they are looking to be classed as evil... then that is what I mean when I say they are the truly evil people.

"'Killing rips the soul apart'," Jake quoted quietly. And that was all about that.

Heh. "As far as I know, Voldemort was proud of being evil, as was Remi... I believe that what most people call an evil wizard is a wizard who embraces it. Like, the 'evil' image of themself." Jake sighed and pinched the bridge of his nose. This was giving him an epic headache, and it was really starting to warm up in here. "I never said that was the definition. I said it was my belief. Also, today's topic is that of Dark wizards, and when most people refer to Dark wizards, I think they actually mean the wizards who are percieved as 'bad' to them or to society. So I used the term 'evil' to make it simpler. That's all."

He turned to face the front again. The quicker this discussion (which was quickly turning into a debate) was moved on, the better. Jake looked at Tate. "It's all ifs, ands or buts. We'll never get a definitive answer because it's all opinion." And nobody liked to change their opinion because that would be admitting they were wrong. And noooooobody liked to be wrong.

Satine listened to him and cocked her head to side nodding it every once and a while and shoving in an "Yes, exactly" or "Yes, I agree" in different spots. "You are absolutely correct and I think in the end you and I agree on so many points....and you are right about the different between the innocent and the KNOWing Evil peeps." she smiled at him and threw her hands up with a little giggle.."Touche..." she said with a wink.

Jaina picked her head up as a thought occurred to her. "What if they come in with the galleons all on the dark side? Then wouldn't their mind already be made up or would there be a way to get them to see the light side?"

When he saw who spoke to him next, Josh, at first, blinked at the Hufflepuff boy a couple of times without saying a word for he wanted to make sure that it was really Jake who was speaking to him. To Josh it was surprising but also amusing to see that Jake dared to speak to him like that.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Maybe he was looking for trouble the Gryffindor boy was not sure but despite that thought he smirked at him and ''Believe me i know the popular traits of houses are not always the same for everyone but when it comes to Severus Snape i don't think you can claim that you know what kind of a person he was because you do not know him in person. Do you?''

*grin*

"Ok. In the case of Snape, the fact remains that he was an actual Death Eater, did bad things, but then he turned to Dumbledore after the Potters were killed and acted as a double-agent. He was in the dark, then he turned to the light. He was ultimately killed by Voldemorts pet for being found out. He was in the Order of the Pheonix, he protected Harry Potter. In addition to being the Slytherin Head of House, and basically despised muggleborns, he helped Harry, Ron, and Hermione, a muggleborn, from the other Death Eaters. I guess that's something unforgivable your eyes, but remember, you never knew him either. so how do you judge a person you've never met?"

"Dude. Listen to what you're saying, then come back to me."

Like what that other kid was saying.

KTHXBAII.

Jake looked at Neptune again and smiled more to himself than anything.

To be honest... Jake didn't care one jot about Severus Snape right now.

"Sir isint magic niter dark or light but grey and the person that is using it that tilts the balance like using a healing spell to prolong some ones pain or using one of the unforgivable curses to save some one ?"

Neptune smiled riiiiiiiight back, then showed Jake her nails that she'd been working hard on while everyone got all bothered by each other's opinions. At least Jake made sense and was seemingly trying to keep the peace.

He was like.... totally mature.

Giggle.

"I think I'll give you more Neptune points now. Five. Five points for your diplomacy."

She blew on her nails then scribbled down Jake's points of the day.

"I'd be pretty regretful too if my magic hand had a mind of its own and killed me," Vashti commented with a small smile. "But really, I think what it comes down to is exactly what betrayal Peter Pettigrew was regretful of. Was he really regretful of his betrayal of the Potters? Or was that regret Harry Potter talks about actually from the betrayal of his hand that probably made no indication previously that it would kill him if he ever did anything it - or, rather, Voldemort - didn't like? That, I guess, we can never honestly know, but in my opinion, whether he regretted the magic hand or his betrayal of the Potters, he was still a Dark Wizard when he died. If he really regretted betraying his friends, he would have acted on that remorse and changed his ways - but he never did."

Merlin, that was a bit longer than she had intended.



"And why can't we know what kind of person he was?" Vashti asked, looking over at the Gryffindor with a raised brow. "Just because we've never met him - you haven't either, I'd like to point out - doesn't mean we can't look back on history and figure out what kind of person he was by the events he was involved in and how he acted and reacted before, during, and after those events. That sort of thing can tell you what kind of person he or she is, even if you have never met them."

"The point is that you take away their free will. You're talking about an animal, I presume, and that's a different fight, but the point is the same. If I feel I know better for you than you know for yourself, and I exert my will over yours, does that make me right? You may be safer, but I removed your ability to react in that situation. Whether the cause is good or bad, when you prevent someone from choosing, you take away the part of them that makes them human. They might as well be an animated bag of parts on a shelf." Tate decided to let that go, if only because the boy was INTENT on this idea that if the cause was good enough, it was permissible to take away someone's will.

"Remi was Dark, but he was also crazy," Tate mused. "Or at least a complete monomaniac."

As for Jake's other point... Tate dropped his head to the side and considered the boy. "Dark describes the course of magic the wizard has decided to take. It describes his intentions. I think it's safe to say that Dark wizards aren't purely bad, but they aren't good guys who are merely misunderstood."

"I never said all Dark wizards are Slytherin, or even that all Slytherins are Dark. I just asked for the connection, which you have drawn quite nicely."

Now this prefect was just DANGEROUS in his naivete. "There's bad all right, boy, and I hate for the day when you come to see it. You're too quick to say that a person's decisions can be blamed on someone else. A man may come from a loveless home, a lonely childhood, stricken with poverty and disease and misery. He may have had nothing lovely in his life. That's a shame, truly. But he himself made the choice for Darkness. There is an active decision in that."

"You bring up interesting points, but I'm not sure I agree with all of them," Tate mused. The boy was thinking, though, and he was entitled to believe as he did.

"Being a Dark Wizard has to do with the magics one chooses to use, the intentions behind the use of those magics. Peter Pettigrew forsook his friends and family and followed the Dark Lord. He was miserable and sniveling in his way, but he was surely Dark. As for Molly Weasley, do you believe that you must have some Darkness in you to do harm in the attempt to do good? I accept we all have the ability to be Dark, we all make bad choices and hurtful decisions, but that is not quite the same as being... Dark." Hm. Interesting points, for sure.

"As we said, a common link between our Dark Wizards was fear. Fear of being powerless, of death... either way, I think Pettigrew qualifies as a Dark Wizard. His death wasn't one of remorse, unless you mean that he regretted dying. But aside from that, I don't know how you can say that a Dark Wizard has no remorse. Are you suggesting that the decision to pursue the Dark Arts drains one of natural emotion? We know that Voldemort didn't have natural emotion, but he was a sociopath. Look at other examples... Grindelwald showed friendship. Malfoy cared deeply for his son in the end."

"I like the summation, and I agree with you in theory. I hope everyone is taking very good notes," Tate gave Jake a brisk nod. "But do you also see that in choosing to use Dark magic to save someone, you also made the choice not to use non-Dark magic? If we are dueling, and I cast the Killing Curse out of fear for my life, then I chose not to cast a petrification or binding charm. Both would be as effective in stopping my attacker, and both would be legal and non-lethal. The point I'm trying to make is that for everyone who says that we can use Dark spells for non-Dark purposes, I say... we can also use non-Dark spells. Why dabble in the Dark if you know it will lead you afoul?"

"Also a fair summation," Tate nodded at Dakest. "You cannot do Dark magic without being changed in some way. It isn't learning to watercolor or taking a baking class. You do not choose it as a hobby."

"Ten points from Gryffindor for being a disruption." Tate gave the boy a flat look. Still carrying on, was he?

"You've failed to carry your point in an attempt to be clever, and have instead only talked yourself in a circle. You'll have a chance to redeem yourself in your homework, hopefully."

"Perhaps the definition of Dark Arts is black and white, so that man may be gray instead," Tate suggested. It wasn't all clear cut, but lines must be drawn.

"Truer words were never spoken. I appreciate all the opinions shared today, and I admire how you mostly managed to respectful in the face of a topic that is highly charged and emotional. Let's continue with the lesson now and leave this debate behind."

He moved back to his desk and seated himself on the lip, giving them all a long and thoughtful look. "We'll do a case study, familiarize ourselves with a specific group of Dark Wizards and look at how they came to be what they are. What can you tell me about Salazar Slytherin?"

"If you did it to protect your family I wouldn't call you Dark or evil. Not at first. At first I don't think even the Dark Arts would have been known as Dark Arts because I do agree that the intent has to be there for them to be evil. The problem I have is that if you used them for that what else may you be tempted to use them for? Maybe you'd never go farther, maybe that's the only thing you'd ever do using Dark Magic. The problem is that for most people who actively practice the Dark Arts they use it for evil, not because it was their original intention but because they've been scarred by the magic like someone else said. But they don't stop after that, they become more and more corrupted because they learn how much the Dark Arts can help them. Eventually the Dark Arts come to mean more to them than their family and friends, and those family and friends are no longer needed. Sure they like to have them there but if they pose any threat or disagree then they're gone." Ok, so maybe Sakura should be more open minded about this but when one saw first hand what happened it was hard to be objective.

"I was born into that world... I was taught, forced to learn Dark Arts, and I changed. I changed because no matter how surrounded I was by people who believed in the Dark Arts I also had a conscience and knew it was wrong. Maybe that also came from having them used on me, and therefore experiencing first hand how awful they are... We have a choice and we can change because deep inside we know it's wrong. Some don't change but I think it's wrong to say that just because you're born into it it's alright for you to practice it because you don't know better." This discussion was getting too involved. At least Sakura thought so. Eventually she was sure someone would break into tears, or a real argument would start up because people had such strong beliefs about this subject.

"He was one of the four founders,he thought the school should be for those of magical familes ,when he left he made a Secret chamber that had a Baskilisk in it,and when the dark lord died the blood line ended as far as we know "

"Unforgivable curses aren't the only kind of dark magic around, as I'm sure you know. Unforgivables are unforgivable, but does that mean that all dark magic is or should be? And what makes it dark anyway? Really dark is a definition that society has attached to certain kinds of magic, maybe out of fear, maybe from jealousy of not being able to do it themselves."

He glanced at Neptune.

"How many of you guys know someone who does dark magic? No really, its not that hard to know someone. Met anyone from Durmstrang? Yeah? Its part of the curriculum there. They don't learn the unforgivables, but they do learn dark magic."



"But who categorises dark magic as dark? What 'reason' its not as simple as magic that harms others cos we've got plenty of that in our own curriculum. Wouldn't it be better to just have laws about harming others with magic, rather than a stigma about different branches of magic? That'd still make the unforgivables illegal, along with a whole lot of other dangerous spells, Dark or otherwise. Its not just that either, laws change. There was even a time where it was legal to cast an Unforgivable. There are spells that are illegal now that weren't illegal 100 years ago, and in reverse, there are spells that have come back into favour. I'm against magic being used to hurt people too, Lexi, but 'Dark' isn't always our personal definition, its more something that we could have been brainwashed to believe and accepted as gospel." He smiled at her, not attacking her opinions so much as a concept in general.

He glanced at the Gryff prefect, Patroclus? Yeah. He nodded but still Jim kinda felt like people were overcomplicating things. Who defined Dark and Light, Good and Evil? Good and Evil were easier on a personal level, Dark and Light? Not so much, and worse, the definitions changed in relation to each other. If the government was run by dark wizards, then things that were 'evil' before would be more acceptable, maybe even considered 'good'. Jim didn't say any of this out loud though, his eyes flicked here and there as he listened to people speak.

"The problem is the social stigma. Jake's right about that." Jim nodded at the Hufflepuff, eyes flicking quickly to Neptune too. "I don't think its fair to judge a person based on what they can do, its more about what they do and more importantly, their motivations for it." He paused for a moment and placed his quill down.

"I guess I resent being told what to think, or told that something is inherently bad." Jim shrugged and grinned a bit. Tell him not to do something and he tended to do it. "Especially if theres not real reason. Nothing except 'because it is' or 'because I said so' behind it."

Question everything, and then find your own real answers.


Jimmy looked up at the headmaster. Salazar Slytherin. He tried to avoid the obvious answers. House founder, Hogwarts founder, blah blah. Hand up.

"He was a Parselmouth, and thats another characteristic that is sometimes associated with dark wizards, and Legilimency, which I suppose makes sense to be associated with dark wizards because its another one of those power-hungry things, as far as motivation to learn it goes. Theres a lot of stuff about how he was anti-muggleborn, but I've read that it was because he didn't trust them, not because of a hate thing, which makes sense historically, since it was more about muggles persecuting wizards than the other way around back then." Jim considered and his mind drifted to an organisation that had existed to fight that persecution.

Salazar Slytherin. That was an easy one.

Raising her hand, Vashti answered, "He created the Chamber of Secrets, which housed a Basilisk that could only be controlled by his descendants who could speak Parseltongue."

Jake had Neptune points. All was well.

And so were Neptune's nails. Wow...

Monomaniac... Jake would have to look that one up.

But yes. Remi was just... well, Jake was glad he was gone, even if he wasn't sure WHERE he'd gone.

When it came to Tate's point, Jake bit his lip and thought for a bit before nodding. That seemed... fair enough.


BAM! And just like that, Jake was BACK in the good books.

He tilted his head at Tate's suggestion. "I suppose that is true..." he said slowly. And it was... but Jake still didn't think that if you chose Dark magic you were a bad person. Then again, Tate wasn't saying that. All was good.


So now Jake was quite proud of himself. He'd kind of gone up and down in this lesson in regards to how Tate responded to what he had to say... but yeah, he was gonna stay on the up. The young man raised his hand slightly and spoke. "Gave his namesake to Slytherin house... and he kind of... didn't want wizards not of 'pure' blood to enter the school. Like, at all."

Looking to the... vaaaaaaguely familiar girl who Jake did NOT know he recognised from years back, the young man nodded quietly.

He wanted so bad to continue, just to answer, but now he couldn't. He'd just have to wait a while, see what happened.

Nevertheless, the girl got a smile.

Satine raised her hand, "Headmaster, my mom told me that when he was sorted the hat told him he was a 'Power Hungry Slytherin'...." she paused and then continued adding, "and wasn't he like Harry Potter's great great great great great grandfather or something..." she asked both questions with a cocked head.

"Salazar Slytherin was a great wizard who was corrupted by the Dark Arts. He only wanted Pureblood's in his house, and he was the ancestor of Lord Voldemort. Slytherin was able to control a Basilisk, something I believe to be a huge feat, and because he could talk to snakes he was a Parselmouth. The stigma associated with Parselmouths can be attributed to Salazar as once he became known as a Dark Wizard, the traits he had also became known as Dark, and it is in part because of his ideas that Slytherin's were persecuted for centuries after the founder's deaths." That probably wasn't exactly what the headmaster wanted but Sakura found talking about famous Dark Wizards hard to do without mentioning the repercussions his actions had.

Patroclus loved lesson's like this.

Where everyone saw just throwing out their ideas, their thoughts their opinions, for when it came down to it, the use of Dark Magic, and a definition of it, was all truly a personal thing.

"Salazar Slytherin, was one of the founder members, and was seen to be the best friend of Godric Gryfffindor, until the time that the issue of blood puriy and the birth right for students of the school, came into question. Associate with the snake, this could be since to relfect the slippery and sleek manner with which he held him. His parting gift to the school was the Basilisk, an ancient demon that murdereded Moaning Mrytle. In the songs of the Sorting Hat, he is often referred to as cunning."

It would be good to get some solid facts for Tate, especially considering that Patroclus knew a little of the depth of Salazar's character.