Despite everything that Daphne Hopton could be, extremely rude wasn't one of them so she let whoever wanted to say their piece, speak before she tugged on her school tie. The room was still buzzing slightly with the electricity of tension visible on a lot of faces of the students. It was clear everyone had an opinion and Daphne was surprised they were being as civil as they were.

Nice people.


"What I was trying to get at, was the ultimate goal of using Dark Arts," murmured Daphne with downcast eyes. "What makes you Dark is what goal you have in life and even then..." It was questionable. Her opinions clearly differed from those of most of her colleagues; that much had been obvious during Truebridge's little class activity.

"I think I want to repeat, in my opinion, power; the use of it, the want of it, the control of it isn't necessarily evil. If it was so, then wouldn't Professor Truebridge be evil? He holds a certain amount of power in this classroom. Right now," said Daphne nodding at the instructor. "He holds a power over us. Obviously in a limited sort of amount but a power nonetheless. Our future as students, our future grade, depends on him. He can do nearly whatever he wants with this power over us. But does that make him evil?"

Err. Maybe she needed to settle down now. For the first time since Celandine had separated herself in the classroom for her, Daphne looked up at her friend. Still, a smile refused to stretch her lips. Instead, she glanced down at her knees once more

Not knobbly knees.

And cue Plymouth Morgan to make all the tension disperse; or at least less suffocating. Daphne looked at him briefly before pursing her lips.

Funny little man. She wondered briefly what Professor Kazimeriz had to say to that.

Daphne made a little thoughtful noise and tilted her head at Jack. "I'm not sure I agree? In war, fear tactics are actually very useful. They do create power because by inspiring fear in others you control their minds. That is power. So, maybe you think they're doing it just for the kicks," repeated the blond quoting what someone had said earlier with a little wrinkle of her nose. "But in their mind, it's all for power. I don't know. I'm not a war general or some kind of rebellion leader. I don't know what goes through their minds. All I know is that what they believe is different and what may seem like mindless violence to some of you may actually be well planned moves in order to win."

To win power. Like in a chess game. Sometimes you even had to sacrifice your pawns in order to win. That didn't mean you were indulging in mindless killing. Never mindless. Just working towards the greater goal: power.

Chris had been listening intently to his classmates as they discussed different aspects of Dark wizards. he had ben listening to Jack speak when he thought of something to add. "I agree with Jack. Some Dark Wizards do their horrible deeds simply to hurt and scare everyone. I know not all of you may know the muggle term terrorist but that is similar to the thoughts and actions of some Dark wizards, meaning they do it to purely cause fear and terror, or for harm."

Lucy perked up as he heard Jack speak. She agreed with him full heartedly, and it had been something that she'd been thinking about ever since Celandine spoke. Nodding, she added, "The satisfaction one gets from harming others can prove to be uncontrollable, too, just as power it is. When you harm a person, it basically says that the harmer is in control of the person which automatically means power. So harmful actions and gaining power come hand-in-hand."

Then she began to think about mentions of the ministry and their lust and obsessions for power. "As for the ministry and their power-lust, don't they make decisions that hurt others? So, really, with that in hand...power doesn't really define a dark wizard. The ministry isn't full of dark wizards, although it was at one point which was during Voldemort's reign. Nevertheless, it's safe to say that we can probably throw out power as one of the main components of a dark wizard. Power just helps uncover the darkness of a person. It does not fuel darkness." she said.

Jack had never talked this much in class like--EVER. Why did Truebridge always make them TALK? Couldn't they sit there and just take notes like in normal classes? Sigh. He looked up as Daphne started talking again and he nodded.

"You're right--I actually think that everyone in this room is correct to some degree," he said. That was one thing he wanted to make clear--Jack didn't like arguing wih anyone. Or letting them think that he was just being like, a grouchy little argurer. "Power definitely DOES come from causing harm and fear...in a way, it makes people respect you. That isn't necessarily their MOTIVE to do it, though. We'll never know the true motives that inspire people to do the Dark Arts are unless we all master the art of Occlumancy," he said.

He cleared his throat before continuing. "Some people want power. Others start off with the intention to just cause chaos and end up achieving power that way, and then maybe their motives change. Maybe they don't even care that they have this power, they just want to cause harm to everyone because they want to. Whatever it comes down to--power or harm--it's not cool to use it for evil purposes," he said. There. That was all that really mattered, right?

"I think we're falling into the trap of broadly coloring everyone with the same brush. We're talking of Dark Wizards in general, and while some Dark Wizards probably do resort only to fear and terrorizing people, that isn't the defining characteristic. I think Daphne and Cela bring an interesting point to the discussion by putting motives to Dark Wizards that I can understand, frankly. The difference is the wholehearted pursuit of power over the well-being of others. Even those seeking political power will take into account their constituents, if only because those people vote for them."

His hand curled over Cela's and he gave her fingers a squeeze. He was talking a lot of rambley nonsense, wasn't he?

Lucy turned towards Daphne, who also made a comment about Jack's statement. "Well, yes, exactly. Harmful acts do lead to power, but I think that Jack is leaning towards the idea that perhaps even though a person is in power, it doesn't necessarily mean they know they are. For all they know, they could just be hurting someone for self-satisfaction, because it amuses them, and not realize they have power over that person." she said. Well, couldn't it happen? Surely, there were some people out there who are like that...

"Come to think of it, the actual act of harming another human being and the satisfaction gained from it will probably cloud their thinking and judgement, hence...they don't know about the power the have at that very moment...?" Lucy said, hesitating on her last few words.

Hmm... as much as she hated debates, Livvy had to say that it was a rather interesting and intriguing one.

Speaking up for the first time, she glanced momentarily at Jack for what he had said. "I have to agree with Jack. Many dark wizards have their very own motives for why they involve themselves in the Dark Arts and we'll never actually know the real reason. But the main reason is the MOTIVE... which everyone keeps bringing up, right now."

Pausing for a moment, Livvy continued. "Power I'd say is definitely a motive. Because many people wish to cause harm or fear among other people, that is a sign of the need for power that they have. Power over their fear and power over their well-being because many might delight in the idea of knowing how they could crush someone like a bug within a second. It's allllll about power. Whether it be politically... over fear... or over the well-being of the society, the main intent of the usage of Dark Arts would be for power."

She'd say so, at least.

Lucy shook her head. Livvy was correct, but it seemed to her that they'd strayed from the actual question.

"I think we've strayed too far from the point of the question, though. We understand the many reasons for why people engage themselves in the dark arts. But why is it that they are 'dark wizards'? What is it about the witch or wizard that makes them so dark? There are many reasons for why a person gets into the dark arts, and why a person is a supposed dark wizard. Like I said to Jack, power simply uncovers the darkness of a person."

"I agree with Copernicus. There are as many different reasons wizards turn to the dark arts as there are dark wizards. Voldemort wanted power. He didn't care what it took to get it. The same could be said of Lucius Malfoy. He served the Dark Lord, but Lucius also wanted power of his own. On the other hand, Bellatrix Lestrange used dark magic to please Voldemort. She would have done anything for him. A lot of the other Deatheaters followed Voldemort because they needed a person to serve. They were nobodies. When they joined Voldemort, they felt like they were important. I also think a lot of the deatheaters just enjoyed doing dark magic. It made them feel powerful when they could persecute other witches and wizards. From where I sit, there isn't just one definition for a dark wizard."

Hmm. The girl had a point there. And it actually did seem that they had strayed away from the question. It was only too easy to do so.

"Well then... what IS it about a with and wizard that makes them so dark? Is it how dark the curse they use or how dark their intent on the effect from their spell is? Like someone said earlier, just because you use a dark spell... doesn't necessarily mean that you're a dark wizard... in the case of Harry Potter. So then... what DOES?" Livvy had begun to even confuse herself.

It seemed that Professor Truebridge's questions were just toooo deep. "Then again... if you're trying to do away a dark wizard with a curse, you'd obviously want to have a severe effect... would that make them a Dark Wizard?" she asked as she scratched the top of her head in wonderment.

ECK. CONFUSION.

Cela let out a frustrated little noise. She was telling them, wasn't she? Power. It was the reason for it. Sure sometimes along the way some people might enjoy harming others, but that too was a show of power. Some of the students seemed to be getting it a bit, but a lot of them still seemed to think that hurting people was the ultimate reason. Harm was just a result, a means to an end; and if you were strong enough and had power of your own, you yourself would not be harmed. More power was more protection.

It wasn't just trying to get power, it was reaching for it whatever the cost, Like Cope said. And when it happened to be a muggle or a mud... muggleborn person in the way?

Well it wasn't a big loss in the grand scheme of things.

... At least that is what Celandine had been taught; certainly it wasn't something she particularly believed. The power thing she believed whole heartedly, because she saw evidence of it every day at home. It was not her opinion, it was fact to her.

Politicians or whatever could not be compared, not unless they were willing to ignore the boundaries and rules that the weakest members of society put in place. When it came down to it, they might have power but they wouldn't do absolutely anything to keep it; they wouldn't... murder a kitten say, or a child, or decimate an entire muggle village in order to keep their power and influence.

And power and influence weren't precisely the same thing anyway. Cel chewed on her lip uncomfortably and squeezed Cope's hand back, then she peeked up at Daphne. She understood the idea of power at least, even if it wasn't from experience.

Lucy began to wonder whether her previous words from the very beginning of this discussion were even acknowledged...apparently not, considering it had come to this. But nevertheless, Lucy was quite alright with repeating herself, just so as long it did not result in people not paying attention. That would be a little...well, it wouldn't be so good. She took a deep breath, trying to remember what she had said earlier, and then repeated it.

"Well, I said this in the beginning but I don't think anyone really heard me but! I believe that what makes a dark wizard so 'dark' is their past, their personality." Suddenly, a new idea sparked in her mind. "Not mention their mindset. Every little thing that has effected a person mentally or emotionally plays a big role in their dark ways. I'm not saying it's a motive...I mean, there are certain things which are motives like one's past. But Take it all in a different direction. A person's past effects who he or she is right this moment, correct?" Lucy paused, attempting to fully collect her thoughts. "So, your past also effects your mind-frame, your way of thinking, whether you want it to or not and whether you realize it or not. This also adds to a person's personality. Add this all up together, you have a person who has combined all of these ideas and in a way, they become so shriveled up in the dark that they despise the brighter side of things. They look for gloom, and grey spots in life to dwell on. They...embrace the darkness, and I think that's what brings out the darkness of a dark wizard."

Whoa...what the heck did she just say? Lucy hoped she had made some sense to others. She thought she made a little sense to herself but still, she remained a bit confused.

"The simplest definition of a dark wizard is a wizard who performs dark magic, so magic must play a role in what makes a wizard a dark wizard. Power on its own can be a dangerous thing. To quote an old saying, power corrupts. Absolute power corupts absolutely. Power may be the reason a wizard uses dark magic. I don't think power alone makes a wizard a dark wizard, so is it the magic the wizard uses that make him a dark wizard? I know from DADA class that magic is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. If I interpret that fact correctly, a wizard could perform the Avada Kedavra curse and still not be performing dark magic depending on his intentions. You have to take into consideration the intentions of the wizard when he performs the spell. Magic is suppose to be dark when the wizard performs magic with the intention of doing harm."

"We all agree Voldemort was a dark wizard. The spells he used certainly caused harm to its victims, so there has to be a certain amount of evil in the magic a wizard uses for it to be dark. I still think the intention of the wizard has a lot to do with how you determine if he is a dark wizard or not."

Daniel was listening to every thing the class is telling them, but he just nodded on them. He then heard Abby say something about doing the Avada Kedavra curse without being evil, he cleared his throat and said, "I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe what you have said, Abby. No offense, but the Avada Kedavra curse or the Killing curse won't work even if used unless the intention of the user is to kill, as like with the other unforgivable curse. But if we talk about killing other creatures not to harm them but to help them, like in eutanasia, then it is another story." he said calmly.

From the spot where he was, Raiden watched the rest of his classmates quietly. It didn't matter what was said or who agreed with whom and who disagreed with whom. In the end... they still wouldn't know for sure. He knew his opinion on it, but as he wasn't much of a debater, it would be pointless to push it on others. They wouldn't take it anyway, after all. So, chewing on his bottom lip as he stared blankly at the other students, Raiden simply remained silent. And thought.

Tammy had watched, her eyes following the different conversations. The discussions about what made a dark wizard. And as the 'speak batton' was metaphorically passed to another person, as did Tammy's eye focus. One person to another. It was interesting to listen to other peoples thoughts, and usually she would have put her own thought process across verbally.

But she hadn't one at that moment. It was something that required alot of thought. You had to think about something, and all its counter arguments. And that took alot of time, in the Hufflepuffs brain it did anyway.

Samson's attention span was slowly dwindling, as the ideas became more and more redundant, only with each student opposing each other with slightly varying ideas. Any minute now... he was going to... fall... asle...

Euthanasia?

His head perked up and he cocked an eyebrow. How intriguing that someone should bring up such a topic. "Uh," he started, raising a finger as he looked at the Gryffindor, "Euthanasia, I think, is more an issue of morality and human rights than anything else. I agree that it's a different thing, as opposed to actually wanting to murder someone. So I suppose, other than the intent of performing dark magic, the situation has to fit. Wanting to actually dominate, for example." Usually, Samson didn't like being this serious, but hey, it was a brain-jogger (even when jogging his brain wasn't exactly his favorite thing to do).

"Besides, I've yet to hear of a wizard dying of mercy killing, with the exception of Lord Voldemort, of course, whom I think killed people off because he pitied them for being poor and powerless and beneath him. Yeah." He shrugged and grinned sheepishly.

Nikki raised her hand, ready to debate with everyone else, or whatever they were doing. "Uh, I think that a dark wizards performs dark magic on purpose to hurt others on purpose. Or for power like Voldemort did." She said, even though she was sure that none of the other students were really paying attention to what she was saying. Truebridge probably heard her, but everyone else, nope! Cue eye roll.

Adrienne found a little bit of a hole in the logic of her fellow Ravenclaw, even though she felt a little odd challenging someone who she was fairly certain was oldre than her, notto mention was even taller than pretty much all the males she personally knew, both in her family and outside. But either way, she couldn't resist commenting. "So you think the people Lord Voldemort killed qualify as mercy killings? Don't most of the stories about him point out that the one thing he never felt, until possibly the end, was remorse? I mean, I agree that he saw the people he murdered as beneath him. As far as I know, he used people until they weren't of value to him anymore, then he discarded them like trash. Which I think is a good mark of a true Dark wizard, however we want to define one. They go after power, killing, maiming, whatever else, with no regard for other people's feelings. Or their lives, for that matter. Normal people, wizards or not, feel guilt over killing things, especially people. Unless they're psychopaths, which I guess in a way, you could qualify true Dark wizards as such." And she felt like she was rambling again, but she knew she had at least one more point to make.

"In any case, I think it's not so much a matter of different types of Dark wizards. It's more like there's a hierarchy in their little society. Because they certainly don't consider themselves really as part of the Wizarding world as a whole. But there's lesser 'dark' wizards, who are probably more in it as followers of the true Dark wizards, who seem to be willing to do anything in the pursuit of power, especially over other people. And they don't really seem to feel the same things that all the rest of us feel, like remorse, concern over others . . ." She bit her tongue, purposefully stopping herself before she got completely annoying. She was starting to feel like once she got started, it was hard to stop, and she actually had never thought she'd had this many opinions on dark wizards. Hmm.

ooc: NicoT has lost his internet connection so I am closing this class until he's back online. Hopefully it won't be too long. I apologize for any inconvenience this causes.

-Kris

After letting the class discuss and offer their ideas and opinions for a while, Ethan cleared his throat.

"There seems to be more to it than at first glance, doesn't there? Indeed, dark witches and wizards are not particularly bothered by causing harm to others, generally as a result of aiming for some greater goal. Some do harm others for pleasure but as a rule, there is a motivation behind it. Those of you who mentioned Power as a motivator are correct, fear is another motivator. Why do you suppose fear is a motivator for a witch or a wizard to master the dark arts?"

So power as motivation for going into the Dark Arts was correct. Adrienne felt a little better insofar as she thought she'd touched upon that somewhere in her rambling, since it was always nice to know you were right about something. And she hadn't even used anything to augment her chances, so that made it even better. But then the discussion was directed elsewhere, and she found herself raising her hand again. "Well, fear could be a motivator in a couple ways. First off, a wizard or witch could be motivated by the fear their knowledge of the Dark Arts elicits in others, which kind of goes along with the idea of power as a motivator. But then also, a witch or wizard could be motivated to attempt to master the Dark Arts out of fear that they have for themselves. For example, someone learning Dark Magic to protect themself from someone else they see as a threat to their own safety." She stopped herself there, since she didn't want to seem too know-it-all or anything. Even though she was fairly certain if she let herself continue, she would touch on more. She could let others in the class answer too.

Cela raised her hand, a little more in control of herself now that the professor had smoothly taken the class in hand again.

"Well, sometimes they have secrets that they don't want uncovered, or maybe they are ashamed of something. Like Voldemort was a halfblood, but he wanted more than anything to get rid of all muggles and mudblo- muggleborn. The two things don't mesh so well. Also, he was afraid of Harry Potter and in general the idea of being defeated and of not being the best. That is why he tried to kill Harry Potter when Harry was just a baby. It was a prophecy that put the fear in him, sir. The strongest fear is that which we create for ourselves."

Chris raised his hand. He knew that Power was a motivation. He grinned, "Well Professor Truebridge, could a reason fear is a motivaton be because maybe in the past they or their families had been harmed by Dark magic or a Dark person, and now they want to learn it so that they won't be afraid of it being used on them again?" he said

"Professor, living in fear, sort of drives you to being totally dependent on something, like some muggles rely on guns and knives, but wizards rely on their wands, and the most harmful this that they know will cause damage is dark magic. So they turn to that.. To get revenge on either someone that put them in fear, or a stereotype of something they are scared of. For example, professors at a school. If someone is in fear of them, it could provoke an attack." That reasoning sounded totally better in her head that it did now it was put outloud. Tammy had decided. From now on, she was staying quiet. Professor Truebridge would probably dismiss her answer, because it was mainly babble.

RIGHT?!?