Woodson was mildly intrigued.

All this talk about dark wizards? It was rather interesting, indeed it was. Generalisation of a whole family? That was something he could relate to after all. He didn't like being here though. With all these people.. far too close. Ugh.

"I think there are always situations where Dark spells can prove to be immeasurably useful for the right cause," Copernicus raised his hand, his expression thoughtful. "But it seems like it would be a slippery slope. At what point does taking someone's will for the greater good slide into taking their will for your own good? The lines would get blurry very quickly unless you had a concrete moral code in place to begin with."

Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Kiri began doubting again that she was really suitable for this class. Professor Truebridge's questions made her head ache sometimes. But she was determined to give it a shot anyway. The first question was easy enough to answer, anyway.

"Erm, well, Professor, a Dark wizard is someone who, uh, practises the Dark Arts. Which means... you know, using spells mainly to cause harm or suffering." There. The other two questions were much less straightforward, unfortunately. "I... I wouldn't say that casting a Dark spell necessarily means you're a Dark wizard," she said, waving her arms expansively. "Maybe you used one in self-defence because you couldn't think of anything else? That would still be bad, but it wouldn't mean you're a Dark wizard."

"As far your question about families..." Kiri shrugged helplessly. "I don't know. I'd say no, it's not fair, but what if parents, er, in-doctri-nate," she said it slowly so as not to stumble over the syllables, "their children? And the children do the same to their children? Warning people of such a family wouldn't be exactly fair because, you know, it wouldn't be the younger generations' fault that they'd grown up to, I don't know... hate Muggle-born witches and wizards. Although then they could still try and change their point of v-... Err, never mind." Kiri's answer was meandering aimlessly now. "What I mean is... It could still be a good idea to be wary of families with a long history of, er, Dark wizards. At least until their descendants have shown that they're different." She took a deep breath.

"I don't think being a 'Dark Wizard' necessarily lies within casting a dark spell, but rather in the intent of the spell," LouAnn said, her hand raised into the air. "For example, a person can cast a dark spell as a means of defending themselves, and that's not necessarily 'dark', so to speak. What would make it dark is if the spell was casted simply to hurt and harm another person. Say, maybe, with no real reasoning behind it. Other than just to hurt the person, that is."

"I'd say a wizard can be classified as 'dark' when he casts a dark spell just to hurt or harm rather than to defend," she continued. "It's not fair to make a generalization about an entire family, because what's true for one person may not be true for another. It's up to each and every individual to make their own decisions and come up with their own viewpoints." When she finished answering, LouAnn got quiet and sunk down in her chair just a little. Even though she'd been at Hogwarts for a few weeks now, she was still a little nervous when speaking up in front of her peers.

Celandine bit her lip and looked over at LouAnn, then she looked at the floor. This was suddenly a very difficult class to be in.

Cela chewed on her lip and avoided answering the first two questions though she raised her hand and offered in a confident but quiet voice, "A dark wizard is not a bad person. A dark wizard is someone who makes magic work for them and not the other way around. A dark wizard is not afraid of their desires or their fears and they know how to satisfy one and overcome the other. A dark wizard is dark because others pass judgement; others who governed by rules they did not themselves make."

Celandine sniffed a bit and continued staring at the floor.

"A dark wizard isn't dark because they use dark magic, they use dark magic because it gives you power; a power that most people are afraid to master. That's what its all about really; power and being the best. It's probably why Slytherin house are often associated with it, because of the ambition to be the best and to master power."

Adrienne raised her hand again as Professor Truebridge asked another few questions, continually trying not to think about what she had heard from Chloe before term about him being cute. That was just too distracting. "Magic almost always has to do with intent. I mean, you have to want to cast a spell; just saying it won't necessarily do anything. So no, I don't think casting a spell that is considered dark automatically makes someone a 'Dark wizard.' They have to fully want to hurt people, casting the spells simply to gain that end, or whatever they want. Dark wizards don't care about others, at least in my opinion, except maybe their brother Dark wizards. And even then it's questionable." She took a breath, then continued, wanting to at least touch upon everything he'd asked. "And I don't think being a member of a so-called 'Dark wizard' family automatically makes you one. It's something that you have to be convinced to do, a choice. It's highly possible someone from any one of the families we've mentioned, or even some we don't know about but still practice Dark magic, could simply choose to go a different way." Of course, she added mentally, Odds are their family would disown them if they didn't choose to follow the same pathway. But they still have the choice. And, if she wanted to think about it, her own ability could be considered dark, almost. A lot of the people in the past who have had it weren't necessarily the best people.

There was thought to be given to such a question, Issy noted, and she pondered this. Jack mentioned that the great Harry Potter had once tried to cast a dark spell and obviously, that did not label him a Dark Wizard. However, how successful had he been? Dark curses and spells were truly more powerful to those who willed and desired it, and those who desired it certainly had a darkness deeper rooted than one who could not muster the ability.

As she raised her hand, she, too, added to the debate.

"This has sort of been touched upon, in a number of ways," admitted the small Ravenclaw, "but... in a way, performing dark magic has a manner of labeling you a Dark Wizard, because it is all in your intent and the power, I think. Dark Wizard is a label given to those who dapple in and practice Dark Arts, but anyone can attempt the Dark Arts. Right now, legalities aside, any of us could withdraw our wand and attempt the Cruciatus curse or something. But... I doubt many, if any, of us could properly perform it, not because we are young, but because we are unpracticed, but also... because we must have the intent.

"Intent is what drives those curses, right? You can't just flick your wand and mutter Crucio and expect your opponent to write in pain. The more vehemently you want it, you desire it, you will it, the more painful such a deed can be. And, in order to want something badly... there does have to be a darkness. This doesn't make one a Dark Wizard, though, because everyone has moments. Moments where we wish darkness and danger, where maybe even accidentally, in anger or pain or anguish, one can wish harm to another.

"Still, I don't think that's enough. Simply being hurt or upset or angry is not enough to harm. Jack mentioned Harry Potter attempting an Unforgiveable and though not much information is given in text history, we do know that he was not nearly as successful as she. So, I believe that if you attempt a dark spell, then no, you are not exactly a dark wizard.

"However, if one attempts with the intent, with that drive, with a darkness fueling them, then... yes. Yes, they are. To use an unforgivable or curse in a manner to hurt someone in a way that is not defense is dark. Because the Dark Side is about selfish deeds and pain and doing what they can to attain what they want. Come to think of it, I suppose one could almost think the same of the Light, except that the Light Side represents a side who avoids hurting when they can.

"So, I guess, what I've long-windedly tried to state is that you are a Dark Wizard only if you act with the intent of darkness, with pain. Even if I attempted an Unforgivable right now, that wouldn't make me a Dark Witch, right? But if I attempted it wanting to do it, to hurt someone, then I've crossed the line.

"But, you can't assume that a whole family is into the Dark Side, just because one or two members are. Sometimes, these families would force their children into it, because of their lineage, their pride, their belief that they are right. Just the same that we adamantly believed that Voldemort was wrong, his followers believed him right. No, it is hardly fair to make those generalizations, but we can't always help it, can we? We are not pure of mind and we fear that which we don't understand. How are we to know if so-and-so's son is or isn't a dark wizard? But no, it's not fair of us, just as it's not fair of us to make assumptions of any sort."

Finally coming to a stop, Issy bit down on her lower lip. Honestly, she'd not meant to prattle on and on, but somehow, the words had just spilled. Oops?

Lucy shook her head. "No, not at all. Using a dark spell may give ideas to someone on the opposing side, making them think he or she is in fact a dark wizard but it does not necessarily guarantee the fact that they are a dark wizard." Lucy paused to take a breath. "As far as anyone is concerned, only the person who is being accused of being a dark witch or wizard can really confirm for themselves if they are one. Whatever anyone else thinks is just a speculation, a guess. And it is absolutely unfair to assume that because one person is a dark wizard or uses dark magic, their whole family is full of dark wizards and witches. It is wrong, and a poorly made assumption and/or accusation."

Lucy then moved her thoughts onto the next question, but could not immediately find the words to this particular question. What made a dark wizard so "dark"? Hmm...Lucy slowly began speaking.

"Well...I definitely will push out the physical characteristics away considering the physical being of a person cannot to lead to anything, really. But...I think what makes a dark wizard 'dark' is their personality, and their actions. For example, when you hear about a person killing someone, you generally think of darkness, and gloomy atmospheres? And then when you hear about someone who is entirely bitter, and selfish, then you think 'Gee...he must live a dark, and lonely life.' All generalizations, yes, but when you think about it, it's these kind of things that add to a person's dark nature, thus, leading to why they are so dark."

Chrirs raised his hand. "Well I think that a lot of people would say that a Dark wizard is Dark because they are evil. Evil is a very strong word and shouldn't be thrown about lightly. I believe that a true Dark Wizard would have to be slightly evil, but to be considered dark I think that they must be wanting to harm others on purpose in the most horrible ways possible and to instill fear in everyone." he finished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truebz

Truebridge just turned to look at Plymouth and shook his head once.

If you can't say anything nice...

-----

So, again; do you think casting a dark spell automatically makes someone a dark wizard? Is it fair to make a generalisation about a whole family?" Ethan asked the class as a whole.

"And what exactly makes a dark wizard dark anyway?"

...

"Hehe."

Plymouth knew that look. The Plymouth behave look. It had started as a very good thought though, Plymouth thought. Very good. Particularly if one thought that casting dark spells made the wizard dark. Surely in all of Kazi's 797345 years of life he'd cast just ONE dark spell, surely.

Not that Plymouth thought this way. He raised his hand. "It would be hypocritical to say that one dark spell makes a dark wizard. Just like saying one crazy muggle in the family makes you less of a wizard. Maybe two though. Once to try it, get it out of your system kind of deal - but if you do it AGAIN... then maybe you're dark. Darrrrrrk." OooOOoOo!

Hm. So anyway, Plymouth just kept his hand raised as he finished his thought, "The same goes for a family. One bad egg dozen mean the whole lot is. Silly to even give that thought a second... thought. hehe. And for the last question, I'll add to my answer of "two dark spells" and say ... intent. The intent behind the dark spell usage." Plymouth's attention span was starting to diminish... so he scooted his cushion across the floor to just generally change positions. Mobile pillow.

Oh, Samson wanted to laugh out loud at this, but held himself back. Hehe. At least the professor was considerate? Snort.

Straightening himself up, he stretched ever so slightly in his bean bag chair and listened to the next question. Hm. "Sir, I think it's more than just the dark spell. It's more on the purpose and intention for casting it. What's the point of trying to use a dark spell if there isn't exactly any, er, darkness put into it? I believe one has to have that evil personality and the want to inflict hurt and chaos to actually pull it off." He hadn't recalled where he had read this, but hey, an answer was an answer.

"To generalize a whole family to be a dark wizard family wouldn't be fair of course, since family members are individuals and have their own minds. It's only up to them if everyone will follow in the footsteps of their one evil relative or another. I've heard of families with, would you say, deviants to the dark side. The Black family, I believe, is a prime example."

Samson stopped right there. He didn't want to, ahem, prattle. And at this thought, he couldn't help but sneak a glance at Issy. Heh. Cute.

At first, Daphne listened quietly with raised brows. Her fingers busied themselves with the hem of her school shirt, folding and unfolding it carefully.

"I think I'm going to be imprudent and play Devil's advocate," she spoke up loudly, eyes focused on her own knees.

"Everyone is going on and on about intent. May I ask the class a question in return, Professor? If what makes you a dark wizard or witch for that matter," interjected the blond, a tiny little spark of feminism erupting within her. "Is using a so called dark spell with the intent to harm, maim, destroy, or...whatever it is you want to accomplish then wouldn't nearly everyone be a dark wizard? The way spells work is through intent. Isn't it?"

Then again, Daphne wasn't the brightest student in Hogwarts. That was Celandine Toussaint; whom she still didn't want to look at directly just yet. "So the minute you cast a spell--and that's guessing you're talented enough to do it right--and it harms another person, hypothetically speaking, you're a dark wizard?"

It didn't really make sense in her head. Perhaps she was over thinking it. "Practicing Dark Arts doesn't make you a Dark Wizard," concluded Daphne with a derisive snort. "It just makes you powerful. It's what you choose to do with that power that determines what kind of person you are."

Feeling as if someone's eyes were on her, LouAnn blinked then turned towards her left. Her eyes met with Cela's, and she started to smile at her new friend, but changed her expression to a questioning one at the last second. Had she...said something wrong? When Cela glanced towards the floor, LouAnn suddenly felt as if she'd indeed said or did something she shouldn't have. She'd have to ask Cela about that later on after class. Great---she'd possibly offended one of the few friends she'd managed to make at her new school. Suddenly a little sad, LouAnn glanced towards the floor, as well.

Though Issy had a feeling that Daphne's question had been intended for the Professor, she couldn't help but to answer herself. Perhaps it the was the thrill of debate and these introspective, deep conversations, but Issy felt the answer probing before she even opened her mouth.

"Do you suppose that talent alone is what it takes to cast such a dark spell?" inquired Issy, completely of curiosity, not sounding a challenge. "Harry Potter was immensely talented and yet even he struggled to properly manage an Unspeakable. I still maintain that intent very importantly determines darkness, because wanting to perform the curse of its own alone does not make it happen.

"Though, I suppose you're right. Sometimes, wizards who aren't considered dark can use these effectively. So, perhaps, instead of saying just intent, it is the intent to do it for reasons that are not defense or life-saving. But I still believe a certain level of darkness is required to propel them. To wish the control of someone, even if it's to save another, required a level of darkness."

Her lips pursed for a moment as she debated over the Gryffindor's words.

"You say that what you choose to do with the Dark Arts is what makes you a Dark Wizard, but that contradicts with your defiance of the intent being what creates the Darkness. Because, if your intent is to maim, and you then choose to use those Dark Arts, aren't you using intent for that purpose?

"And," she added, "on that matter. The situation probably matters a great deal, because as you pointed out, if it is only intent that makes you a Dark Wizard..." Now she was confusing herself. Pinching her eyes shut for a moment, she started over. "The difference, I think, in your intent is situational. Bellatrix tortured the Longbottom's for information. But, if you were going to be killed by someone... then... maybe Crucisatus, while not legal, would be able to be used without marking you a Dark Wizard, because it is to save yourself?"

But... no. Even that seemed wrong.

And now her head was hurting. She shrugged her shoulders at Daphne, signaling that maybe neither was right but had just reached a moot point? For now, they could just leave this to Truebridge.

"Personally, I don't think so," Samson answered the girl. "I think, I mean, from what I know," dare he say he didn't exactly know much? "Spells do work on intent of the caster. Spells are supposed to do just that, aren't they? Do what the caster wants to be done. So doesn't the person in question, that is, the person casting the dark spell, have a choice to make? Like, you can choose to be evil and like what you're doing. As far as I know, none of the Death Eaters ever forced themselves to join. Forcing, I guess, is the job of the Imperius curse. And like I said, a person has to have that really eeeevil personality and attitude and whatnot.

"On that power part, I do agree."

Did what he say even make any sense? To him it did, anyway. Pfft.

He looked from the girl to the professor, and back again, giving her a 'Oh, hello there!' sort of grin. Heh.

Plymouth paused in his cushion-cruising to listen to Daphadil. He could NOT help the cutesy faces that occurred after she was done talking. Just could. not. help. himself.

He raised his hand at her, since she'd asked the question. Little devil Daphadil. "I'd use the cruciatus curse a thousand and one times for you if someone meant you harm, Daphne Hopton. The intent would be to cause THEM harm, to save YOU. Hehe. Oh, you two Professor! I got your back."

And... wink.

Phoebus looked over at Daphne as she spoke, watching her and trying to get past her totally obvious prettiness to think about what she was saying. Once that was accomplished, he raised his hand. " I agree with Daphne. Because if you used a few simple spells relatively quickly, and I mean say...Petrifcus Totalus and Wingardium Leviosa...you could kill someone by dropping them off a cliff or by some other means. No need for an illegal curse there..." He realized he might have sounded a bit crazy and he paused. " So those are perfectly legal spells...used in an illegal manner. So I agree. It's all about what you intend to do with any talents you have." he said, feeling self conscious suddenly and getting quiet again.

Jack bit his lip and looked around. A lot of people seemed to be disagreeing Daphne, or so it seemed--his head was starting to hurt a bit--and that didn't seem fair! He totally got what she was saying. Raising his hand again, simply out of habit, he piped up from his little corner of the room.

"Alright, I'll agree with you there--I get what you're saying. Practing Dark Arts means you already have intentions of harm--so maybe we mispoke?" he said. He knew he had definitely not meant that when he spoke, but that WAS kind of what he had been saying. "Obviously you wish to cause harm to someone but, WHY do you wish to do that to another human being? That's what determines a Dark Wizard--if you're just trying to defend yourself, or someone else, then you really kind of have another motive other than causing harm to your attacker. You're doing it to save your life, or somene else's life. That doesn't make you a Dark Wizard. But if you're just a sick human being who is doing it for kicks, that's a bit different, and that's when you fall to the Dark Side and become a Dark Wizard," he explained.

That HAD been what she had been going at, right?

After listening to her classmates and shrinking in on herself uncomfortably as she thought about her family and particularly her brothers who were not bad people, even if they were adept in the dark arts, Cela continued to look at the floor, not daring to speak up until Jack spoke.

"The motive is to obtain power, not to do harm." Celandine answered quietly.

"Power, whatever the cost."

Abby raises her hand. "Professor Kazimeriz said in DADA class that the definition of Dark Magic is a spell a person cast with the intention of doing harm. I would think the same definition would apply to a dark wizard, but we should take into account that some wizards do use dark spells such as the Unforgivable Curses as a means of protection. Members of the Order of the Phoenix and the Ministry's Department of Magical Law Enforcement have had to use the Unforgivable Curses to defend themselves from attacks by dark wizards. I don't think these individuals would qualify as dark wizards."

"I think the definition of a Dark Wizard would be a person who habitually uses dark magic for personal gain. This wizard performs the magic with the intention of doing harm to an individual be they a wizard or muggle. Lord Voldemort and Bellatrix Lestrange habitually murdered people for their own ends. I would consider them to be Dark Wizards."

Turning to an unfamiliar Ravenclaw, Issy tipped her head curiously. "I don't think... necessarily, a Dark Wizard must dapple solely with the Unforgiveables. As the general consensus of this class states, it is how you use magic in general, Dark Arts included, that determine darkness. Because, you are right. You can use any legal curse to kill, and that doesn't call for it being made illeagal.

"But why are you killing? Why are you causing that harm and what do you wish to get from it? I think that's what the new belief is. Why would you kill someone for no reason? Personal gain or not... when it comes to death, there certainly is something... not right. Be it an unbalanced mentality, a sadistic nature, or a thirst so strong that nothing can quench it. There is a darkness."

"But," added Issy, her voice gentle. Celandine, though a Succubus, looked unhappy and uncomfortable. "Getting that power means taking out whatever obstacle is in the way, right? Therefore... there is still an intent to harm, if it means being closer to their power. There is a sick thrill of power to be obtained from hurting someone after all, so in some cases, those two can actually go hand in hand."

This conversation was possibly becoming out of control.

Jack almost jumped when he heard Cela speak up. She had been quiet for a while--a real change for her. Usually she was all over the place, talking nonstop but she seemed very...morose during this lesson. Hmmm, maybe this whole blood status thing ran really deep in her family? Jack had never been sensitive about it but, maybe Truebridge was right--maybe this lesson was going to be kind of tough for some people.

He shrugged. "Yeah, it could be to obtain power--there are many motives that could inspire one to dabble in the dark arts. But it could be to do harm too," he said. "There are some people out there who were in the dark arts just for the sake of causing absolute chaos...there is no denying that there are people out there who are like that. They want to harm people just to harm people, it gives them some strange satisifaction. Creating terror just because they can. Causing harm doesn't necessarily make one powerful, but that doesn't stop people from doing it."

ooc: Go ahead and keep discussing, Truebridge encourages it. I personally do too And you are all good enough RPers that I trust it won't get out of hand.

Everyone is doing great so far and I'm finding it interesting to see how individual characters are reacting and their personal history and heritage is coming into play.

I'll be back in a few hours to respond and to move the lesson on. Don't feel rushed or like you have to post either. Just enjoy it.

Fred listened to what all his classmates had to say about what makes a dark wizard and all their contradicting ideas and through that he started to fomulate his own answerand when he thought he had something he spoke up and said, "I believe a dark wizard is one that has the intent to kill, hurt, or control another being in a hap-hazzard way that could cause harm or death to themselves or someone else, and causing danger intentionally out of revenge or for no reason at all".

"Dark Wizards do lust after power. and Celadine is right. They will use whatever methods at their desposal to obtain it, but there has to more than just a lust for power that makes a wizard a dark wizard. If power was the only qualification, we would have to include every Minister of Magic past and present to the list. People who aspire to higher office often lust for power. In the defense of a lot of dark wizards, I don't think they start out being dark. The ends justify the means. They become obsessed with power. These dark wizards will use any means available to obtain it."