Daniel listened to every part of the points that was given by his classmates. He then took a stand to say something. To be heard.

"Hello, I am Daniel Kaiser." he started. "I don't think that fear is the reason why house-elves chose to serve their masters. I am not saying that fear is not a driving force to some, but not all. Little of you know, I have house-elves left to my care when my parents died. And from the stories that I have heard from them, yes, I am talking to them often. They are doing it out of gratitude." he cleared his throat. "You see, according to them, they chose to serve the Kaiser house because my great, great grandfather once rescued their ancestors. I would also ask them, if given a chance that I will set them free, would they be accepting it? And they say, no, and they added that if they will be set free, they will still choose to serve us." he paused and looked at the others. "What I'm trying to say is this, House-elves like the way they are because they feel a sense of accomplishment in what they do. They are bound to that vow they take as the helpers of the family they are serving and not just because of fear." he then stepped down and waited for a response.

Copernicus watched the much younger girl with interest. She was pacing and a bit disjointed, but her points were sound. And her look was something maniacal. She was freaking him out. He stood after Diane finished.

"The flaw I see with your argument, Diane, is that ignoring house elf law and culture and desires because they can't be trusted to know what is good for them means that you are assuming we do know best. House elves are not naughty children who eat too much candy; they are living creatures who are capable of making up their own minds. Did we influence their current cultural standards? Without a doubt, we did. But those standards now exist and cannot be ignored. I'm not calling for no change; I'm simply stating that we need to respect these house elves. I find it much more distasteful to assume that what I think is best must also apply to everyone than I do to see these house elves picking up my brother's dirty socks."

He put his hands behind his back and paced a bit, although not nearly as frantically as some of his classmates. "I'm not sure I understand your other point correctly, Diane. Dobby was free and not unhappy about it... but he still returned to service. That was my point."

Cope was relieved to be finished. Completely and totally happy to sit and listen to his classmates finish up.

Jack didn't feel like arguing with Anna again--because duh, he'd lose. He had given it a shot, though. And that was all that mattered. Instead, he turned to Chris, who was also against his stance, and cleared his throat once more.

"While it is definitely true that today's Ministry is more understand, Prefect Potter, wouldn't that mean that, if house elves WERE unhappy with the way things were being run, that they would stand up for themselves now? As you said, we have a much more tolerant Ministry than we ever had during Dobby's time--and therefore, the House Elves would have no fear of coming out and taking a stand. But because none of them have stepped forward to speak on behalf of their rights, I think that leads us to believe that House Elves are not unhappy with their current conditions."

"And while it is also true that there are undoubtly people out there who mistreat house elves," Jack continued, "It is also true that classes, such as our History of Magic class, are teaching us about the history of these creatures and therefore teaching us tolerance. House elves are now serving a generation that has been taught to treat them with kindness, therefore making their lives much more enjoyable. Serving is and most likely always WILL be a joy for the elves, and the more people we have who treat them with kindness in return, the more they'll enjoy their jobs."

Chris nodded politely as Jack made his points on the subject. Chris waited for him to finish and then said what he had to say, "Well Jack what I meant by the idea of us having a more understanding Ministry was that we can help the House Elves speak up, because no matter what your stance is on the situation at hand, you pretty much have to agree that somewhere there is a house elf too scared to speak up. Yes they could stand up for themselves if they were brave enough to do so, but if they wanted our help, we should make sure we are there."

Chris looked down at the note he had made from Jack's second point. "Jack you are very correct about the one thing though. This Histroy of Magic class has taught us, no matter what your stance on the House Elf changes, tolerance of these wonderful beings." He finished up on a goood note. He really felt for his cause but the people he was debating with weren't enemies, just good friends with differences in opinions.

Fyo smiled at Satine. "Indeed, it was decades old, but the S.P.E.W of those days was the original one, and hence radiated the real spirit of the organization. That said, I agree many changes happen to a group over time, many for the better; but you have just ignored my point. What I pointed out was that, even when given a clear-cut choice between freedom and servitude - and that, too, in circumstances that dictated they would not be punished or persecuted if they chose the former - the house-elves refused to choose freeing themselves. I believe that that speaks volumes."

"Secondly, I would like to point out that it is wrong for wizards and witches to assume that they know what is best for a race. I sometimes feel we humans have this "superiority complex," and hence think we know what is best for everyone. Take house-elves, for instance: I believe that, before we start campaigning for their freedom, we need to ask the house-elves if it is what they want. But, as time has proved again and again, it is not! You say that many house-elves choose servitude out of fear, but I would say that is an incomplete point: Many house-elf choose, not servitude, but to continue servitude in the same place, out of fear. Dobby's example shows us that, were this fear to be uprooted, they would still choose to work - but in a more humane environment. What house-elves want is humane living conditions, and what house-elves want is kindness, but freedom is definitely not on their wishlist."

End of ramble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!

"Vanessa, that's a very well thought argument you got there," Diane complimented her for no reason at all. She looked happy, and was indeed very impressed with her schoolmates. "Let me see if I can respond to you. You said something about house-elves being happy free does not mean they are not happy with what they are already doing. I would like to respond to you, and I think this can count as a response to Fyodor."

"I'll begin by saying," she said laughing, "By free, I didn't mean, 'living in the wild'. Poor dears, no, just having communities of their own and feel free to come and go as they please - and especially removing the need to punish themselves. In our world, that would more or less constitute our idea of freedom."

She made a mock thinking gesture by putting her fingers together before her.

"I guess another way to look at freedom is to say, by law, we are all equally in our right to act according to what is in our best interest and seek such thing as education and shelter. But the relationship master-house elf is not a relationship of equals. Thus, they are not, by definition, free.

"This has not raised so big an issue because their non-freedom status has, alledgedly, always been what they want. Now, Satine has brought many of my intended points, which will allow us to question where do we trace the origin of this 'willing servitude', and if it is indeed a house-elf idea," she went on, considering a bit of house-elf history she learned. "Or if it is brainwash and fear."

She mmh-ed pensively. "I don't know for certain, to tell you the truth. The history is obscure. Maybe the question should be, can we tell for certain it was not us who brought up this ever so convenient rule?" she considered out loud. "Mmh... Her guess is a likely possibility."

"However," she went on pacing at the front like an old man during a lecture, "Disregarding where and from whom that concept of house-elves valus came to be, you may say it's now part of their culture. And it is true: to tamper with their customs would be a disrespect to their and any culture!

"The question is, should wizards abide by these laws? After all, as we said, these are not -our- laws. Should our respect for their culture so easily transm into acceptance?"

"If we are indeed looking after their best interest, we wouldn't indulge them, no. If we were responsible, we would not allow it, to use an allegory, the same we won't let a child eat so much candy they will end up with a stomachache.

"With a society so closely interlaced with ours, our actions are critical to define theirs - should we continue to accept it, is to say it's right. A common ground has to be reached but our values should not be compromised either. After all, you are worried about the house-elves happiness, right?"

There was a pause where Diane just stood there, raising a hand to scratch her head. "That's not what the house-elves want, they would not be happy being free... Well, can't the house-elves be free AND happy?" she shrugged aloofly.

"I heard the story myself," Diane recalled. "I heard the house-elf Dobby walked around wearing layers and layers of clothes even during summer, rather flamboyantly, even around other house-elves. I think that speaks volumes too."

Her eyes, lit with a smile, lied on the head boy names after the astrologer. Wonders if this constitutes as a response too. (ooc: ?)

"So to the question whether house-elves can be happy being free, the answer would be: yes."

"'Cause, you talk about Dobby the house-elf, but the importance of Dobby's story is not setting a norm but provide an alternative. And the alternative is possible, remember this," she said, again in lecture mode. "His is the biggest of examples because, why, Dobby was free and Dobby wasn't miserable. A culture of free, happy elves is possible-- No, it's favorable."


ooc: ...and it continues... and good thing Satine is backing me up, otherwise this post would be twice as long. Scary, I know.

Hearing his name, Fyo turned his attention towards Diane. She had good points - great points - and that meant he would have to deal with each of them, one by one. Methodical - healthy - comebacks was what he was aiming for, here.

"Diane," he said politely. "You just pointed out what you believe is "freedom." Before I say anything else, allow me to make something clear: I like to believe that, when we speak of servitude and freedom in house-elf terminology, we are referring to work and "no work." Your "freedom" stresses on house-elves not having to punish themselves etc. The way I look at it, that is not "freedom" - those ought to be the fundamental rights of house-elves. By calling the rights of a race, a freedom they do not have, strips them of their rights in the first place."

He shrugged, more to take a breath of air than anything else. "You propose to find a way that ties, hand-in-hand, the happiness and freedom of the house-elf race. But your proposal has a fault: what you call freedom is the rights of any house-elf. You are, in other words, advocating house-elf rights. Our stances, in that way, hit a common normal: House-elves should have their rights. But no group and no organization whatsoever, has the right to strip them of their work and willingness for love."

"To your last point, I have only one thing to repeat: Dobby was an exception, and we can not base our treatment of an entire race on an exception - doing so would be a gross misjustice to nearly every other house-elf in existence. If one sheep breaks away from the flock and, believing it is providing an alternative to the other sheep, we let the rest break away too, we would be doing more harm than good -- A few strong sheep may survive, but most would become food for hungry wolves."

"It is also noteworthy that, despite the clothes, Dobby continued to work. This shows that, no matter how "different" he was, he was not really different: When the time to choose came, he chose a healthy environment over an abusive one, and he chose work above no work. In other words, even he believed that "happy and free" together meant a fusion of rights and work, not a fusion of rights and no work. He was not showing an alternative: he was showing what is right. Today, that "right" - the fusion of rights and work - is already acknowledged, and the Ministry itself sees to it."


OOC: Continues in another post. Hopefully, that's going to be the last one.

Cela had listened to her classmates and sighed a bit to herself about how smart Cope was before actually starting on her own work. She decided to go for the viewpoint that she had been exposed to most, even though it wasn't the one she supported herself.

She wrote a bunch of notes then skipped up to the podium to take her turn.

"Hi everyone! I'm Celandine," They knew that though, right? "And I'm speaking on behalf of
Witches and Wizards that do not support house elf rights. I'd like to break this down before I start; If a Witch or a Wizard does not support house elf rights, it does not necessarily mean that they are against house elf rights, it sometimes means they may not actively promote them or consider them to be a pressing matter. It may also, in contrast, mean that they are completely and vehemently against House elves being considered worthy of having rights. Either way, I'm not supporting the house elves and like, I'm going to make some points about why and stuff now." Cela beamed at her fellow students for a moment then put a snooty, superior look on her face.

"House elves are not wizards, nor are they even human. A house elf is dependent on their master and because they do not have the means to initiate change on their own, they do not have the right to want change either. Furthermore, the majority of house elves are happy with the staus quo, they wish for nothing more than to serve us, their superiors. Giving an elf unrequested freedom is comparable to signing a death warrant for them; they destroy themselves with their own self-loathing. What right do we have to make them suffer by pressing our own ideals of freedom on them? We should only do what is natural; allow them to serve us as they wish to and fulfill their purpose.

Rights are entitlements or permissions, usually of a legal or moral nature. How we define the idea of having 'rights' is different to how mere beings define it, and different beings have their own definition and understanding of the concept. If our concept of moral and legal rights place house elves in a position they do not wish to be in, how is that fair? How is that helping them? We do not understand more than what they are willing to share with us; they are willing to share that, in general, they are happy serving their betters. We have no rights to make assumptions, we have no reason to make assumptions; they serve us, they are happy and so are we."

Geeeee. Cela dropped the snooty expression and wrinkled her nose at herself. She didn't support her chosen viewpoint, but it was interesting to argue it anyway.She returned to the seats and waited for another opportunity to speak.

Diane watched with as smile as the Head Boy answered her speech. But she made no indication of responding - she was out of 'responding' chances after all: three people already. Ah, she didn't like leaving people without answers but, ah, debates like these could go on and on forever, couldn't them.

In any case, she was happy with herself, because that last speech part was her impersonating professor Kazimeriz and it came out pretty Kazimeriz-like in her opinion. It made her pretty amused. However, she was still due one last part of her speech.

Soon it was time again and Diane took the podium.


"Umm," she began. "I feel the discrepancy of opinions in this class is due to the fact that we actually don't know what happened centuries ago when the house-elves were first 'employed'. With that thought in mind, I judge we cannot know what they want, because some of us will be eternally doubtful if the elves actually know what they want.

"You say SPEW is egoist to decide what's best for them, but, I say, why aren't you egoist to assume you know 'what they want'? Psychomagical studies had been carried in humans to determine we don't many times know what we want - why not held house-elves to this same parameters, why not think they have the same level of psychological complexities?"

Diane tsked. "But, the house-elves are so humble and convinced this is their place they'd never admit it." She was quizzically transparent, a kind of sad and resignation written on her face.

Raising her head again, she said, "Without knowing of elves history, we are blind to provide a just judgement. I've asked the elves. But their evasives seem to be their way to express that they wish not to be questioned about it, while not expressing direct disobedience. Or they could be ignorant to their own history, simply scared by kinship.

"I've also looked into house-elves history in books written by wizards and there's simply not enough background to acertain the origins of the elves' slavery." It is the perfect subject for a debate in that sense: no one can never know for sure. "What I came accross with was much more obscure, but... well, let me share it with you to further my point. In ancient times, there was this practice among magi called evocation.

"In evocation, it is said the wizard summons a creature or 'spirit' inside a diagram, often a pentacle, and once a prisoner, the creature must do the wizard biding. These were tiny creatures hardly reached an adult human above the knee and possessed magic of their own. The more I think about it, the more it resembles house-elves.

"But one thing you need to understand about these creatures, to know why --if these creatures were indeed the elves-- why they feel this need for secrecy about this part of their history, is that the practice of evocation was also called by another name. That name is Demonology.

She raised her hands defensively, "But by calling them that I don't mean anything negative - what gentler creatures are there really? Yes, the creatures summoned were called demons, but at the time and age, the name didn't carry a negative connotation. It was more like a genie or jinni, and is often described as a being with human-like moral, not evil.

"Now think for a minute, what about if, at some point, they learned, crafty creatures as they are, and broke free from the binding of the pentacles? The last record of this practice is in the middle ages. They rummaged through the human world with no bidings maybe for the first time.

"But my guess is that their freeing coincidentally took place when the Inquisition struck Europe, and these little creatures, ah, the horrors they must have encountered... and these muggles who tried to make sense of the creatures they encountered, and feared, associated demons with vile creatures.

"And for the young innexperienced elves, unfortunately, their becoming free took place just about the same time and they thought this was punishment, for having wished-- having gone against their 'place'. So they ran back to their masters, begging them to take them back, willing to do their every service so long as they could not be 'free' again and face nature's cruel sentence.

"So the 'demons' disappeared back into the wizards' thresholds and never again slaves by magic, yet were 'enslaved by choice'." Diane considered, "It makes sense that house-elves belong to families of wizards and witches with an old bloodline in this sense. As for the elves, they didn't know better; they didn't know it was human hand and not nature that struck them. And the wizards never told them better."

"Fear must have done its share to dramatize 'demons' look in muggle art. The creatures in demonology are muscly, while the elves are thin with neglect of thousand of years. Actually, I don't think the skinny form is the elves original physical figure, no. By all means, the name 'demon' was dropped and the practice of Demonology pretty much forgotten. That might have been the only good thing the wizardkind has done to protect them."

A silence reigned for a while. Then Diane smiled. "But, this is just guesswork. Wouldn't it be interesting if it was true," she went on to say as if she didn't believe it, pretty much contradicted the more serious tone she had adopted during the narration.

"I've been called muggleborn because I don't see eye to eye with this outlook elves 'like their work'. But I think it's is good that people like me exist who hasn't yet become accustomed by this unnexplicit wizarding laws. Which shows it is our laws are the ones in decadence."

She crossed her arms. "Kind of attonish me, people chose to believe the version that is most convenient to them. You know, I think even that wise iconic warlock, Professor Dumbledore, wanted elves to be free, why does nobody mentions that? Uh, oh, I should be making my closing statement, right?"

She cleared her throat, yes, after having just been rambling away.

"The truth may be something like my narration and it wouldn't be fair to continue to fool elves like that. The elves can work -- work is not servitude, despite what Cinderella's stories tell us... otherwise, we would be as enslaved as house-elves..." she trailed off, pensively. "But we must be sure of the how and who and why, and that it's their true choice. To do that, they must not only be given the choice to be free, but feel free to make the choice."

"So free the elves from a history of fear!" Diane finished animatedly. That closing statement was rather weak but, she was out of time and Diane was better at conversation than speeches. Though the narration had come out rather nice, if she should says so herself. Ah, at this time, she looked as if she was having fun... in a rather twisted, weird way.

Dani listened as every one spoke on their sides before speaking up. "Well I know we're debating the rights of House-elves here so I'd like to speak from the point of the House-elf Relocation Office." She took a moment to gather her thoughts. She was not a good public speaker. Except when there were crazy emergency situations.

"You must know that the Office of House-elf Relocation tries to place House-elves in environments where their owners do not abuse them. House-elves want to serve, it's how they are wired. Imagine that you really like to do something that other people thought was punishment so they took it away from you for your own good? You wouldn't take that very nicely would you? We do our best to be good by them."

She looked around, blushing. Hoping she hadn't offended any one, she waited for a response to her statement.

Okay, sooo, erm...she'd pretty much decided a good fifteen or so minutes ago that the decisions of house elves should be left up to each elf. Nevertheless, though, Anna was meant to get up and speak a minimum of three times. Psh. She may as well get it over with. Besides, class would probably end soon, and it just wouldn't do to miss out on taking a third of her final exam. With a sigh, Anna pushed herself up out of her seat and headed back to the podium.

Once she reached it, she cleared her throat...three times...and casually checked her watch. Had she actually been wearing a watch, her lack of having anything specific to say might not have been so obvious, though. Ugh. Why didn't she stay seated for a while to give herself time to think this one over? Ahh. Oh, yeah. Right. She'd feared class would end before she could get a chance to speak. Sigh.

"Okay, so, what really confuses me is why we even have to decide anything for these elves anyway. I mean, we don't go around deciding what's right and what's wrong for unicorns, hippogriffs, or abraxans, so what is it about an elf that makes us feel as if we even have to take a stand for them in the first place?" she started. "The last time I spoke up, I mentioned how I feel as if the decisions we make---if we even make any at all---shouldn't be directed towards house elves as a whole. I mentioned how I believe we should just let each individual elf decide what he or she believes is right for themselves. What's right for one elf might be wrong for another...and vice-versa."

Okay, so cool. Speech number three was actually going along kind of nicely. Hmm...okay. "So, yeah, that's why I also support the fact that a decision really shouldn't have to be made about house elves. I think we really should just let them be. If they want to serve us faithfully, then so be it, but of not, that's cool, too," she continued. "Going back to what I said earlier, we should provide elves with a way to be able to speak up and make a decision for themselves without fearing rejection from their fellow elves. Maybe a neutral committee could be formed to sort of, ya know, listen to the voices of the elves."

Daniel listened attentively to the points presented to the panel. He then stood up and cleared his throat before he spoke.

"Yes, some people say that house-elves must have rights and be respected." he paused, "I don't have any arguments with that. But this is what I ask of you. Do they really need those rights if they are happy with the way things are? Will they want a change if they are satisfied with the work and servitude they have?" he faced them all. "Ladies and Gentlemen. Professor." he said addressing the entire class, "We give them freedom and the rights to do whatever they wish to do, but what will they do? They have only known serving as their whole life and they are sufficed with the fact that their master are pleased with the servitude they have. Should we take that away from them? Should we take away the one thing that makes them happy? If we do that, the change that some of us say is needed will be put to waste." after saying that, he stepped down from the podium and left the viewers with cliff-hangers.

Looking at Celandine right now hurt Raiden's heart a little bit. The look on her face as she presented her points was just... not her. At all. It was much better when she'd finished speaking and wrinkled her nose. Taking that as a cue that he could respond, Raiden stood and chewed his bottom lip for a moment before starting.

"I'm going to... represent House Elves That Want Change," he stated clearly, voice faltering a little. "Celandine was right in saying that House Elves are not human. They're definitely not. But that doesn't mean they don't have the means to initiate change. In Harry Potter's time, the house elf Dobby took the initiative and went against his master to warn the opposing forces of what was to come. Had he not taken it upon himself to do such things, despite his master's wishes, certain things wouldn't have happened how they did and it's everything could have turned out completely different. A house-elf became the crux of that change that tipped the scale from one side to the other." He paused and took a breath. Debating with Celandine Toussaint might prove to be a bad idea; it was already tiring to stand at the opposite end. "As for the right to want change, any sentient creature has the right to want something. We as humans put ourselves so much higher than those we classify as creatures, but in the end we're just the same as them. They breathe and walk and blink and all that stuff. We do the same. Just because we might be classified as a bit more intelligent than they doesn't mean that they should be denied the ability to want. Even a cat wants sometimes; granted, they're simple wants such as food, water, snuggles... but they're still wants."

Merlin's Pants, debating. Debating was as bad as fighting.

"I believe, personally, that we've been shown that there are house elves out there who want change in the world. Not all of them are for change, many are happy as things are. But just because the majority is content doesn't mean that we can't stand to have a change for those that are unhappy with their situation. They want to be treated justly and all that, and they should be. Throughout history we've seen many, many battles for rights. Over 100 years ago, girls had to protest and fight for the same rights as boys had, because it used to be thought that they were inferior to boys. House elves aren't exactly the same thing, but it's close. Just because they're a little different doesn't mean we should be allowed to deny them the right to speak out for change. Those who want change should be allowed to have it."

William had listened intently not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Honestly he didn't know what he was going to say, but he was going to do his best in saying it. Looking at Raiden he decided to speak up.

"Hello my name is William Cullack and I'm going to try to represent House-elves happy with the way things are. While i do agree with you on some things Raiden I have to disagree with you on a few points. One is that yes while Dobby did do his own thing, showing us that he is his own person, or being in this case, it still brought a lot of discord into the whole House Elf rights. I don't think that even if Dobby didn't do what he did it would have changed anything. Harry Potter still would have done what he did in some other way. Dobby could have disrupted him by doing what he did." William frowned. Oh dear he was horrible at this!

Sighing he continued, "I think that House elfs deserve to be left alone to do what they want. I mean how would you like it if someone, other than a professor or your parents told you to do something you didn't want to do? That you knew was wrong?" he paused, letting that sink in. "I think that if Dobby really understood what he was doing he would have done it differently, but I do agree with him being a free elf. and that should be the right of all house elfs. Let them make their mind up, they are sentient beings who deserve a lot more respect than what they get." he stopped, his voice lowering and gulped. Oh boy what

He had spoken a whole lot, hadn't he now? Fyo would have liked to continue his debate, but debating like this could go on forever, because even differing viewpoints could sometimes - or, in the case of this final, a lot of times - hit a common tangent.

Which meant it was time to wrap it all up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by She-Who-Is-Not-To-Be-Psycho!

"Umm," she began. "I feel the discrepancy of opinions in this class is due to the fact that we actually don't know what happened centuries ago when the house-elves were first 'employed'. With that thought in mind, I judge we cannot know what they want, because some of us will be eternally doubtful if the elves actually know what they want.

"Diane, I tend to disagree," he said. "It is like comparing today's human to the early human. If the early human preferred to eat meat raw, we can not say today's human should have his meat raw, too. The point is that house-elves have a passion for work, and it is wrong to try and strip them of it."

Quote:

"You say SPEW is egoist to decide what's best for them, but, I say, why aren't you egoist to assume you know 'what they want'? Psychomagical studies had been carried in humans to determine we don't many times know what we want - why not held house-elves to this same parameters, why not think they have the same level of psychological complexities?"

"It is not an assumption, rather it is their own say," Fyo said with a smile. "No matter how oppressed a race, there is always an exception who speaks out. If house-elves did not want to work, I am sure at least one of them would say so. But time and evidence continue to prove that they do want to work. In other words, I do not think there is a possibility that we will be doing house-elves a disservice by allowing them to work in a humane, approachable environment."

He turned back to everyone else, for a moment unsure what to say. Times like these, Fyo wished he was more prepared. He had brought no notes to the podium during the entire time he had been there, and his mind was suddenly blank. Only for a moment, though. Indeed, the third year was speaking again before he knew it.

"A debate like mine is circular, and perhaps it could go on forever," he began placidly. "But, when all is said and done, there is never a shred of doubt that, whatever their history and whatever their previous choices, the house-elves of today enjoy to work. What they ask for is not - and has never been - lack of work, but the provision of basic rights, the ability to live without the fear of oppression or cruel behaviour."

"I believe that, today, house-elves are happy with the way things are. They are happy, not because they have finally chosen to forgo what some of you like to call "freedom," and continue to work; but happy because they have finally reached, to a massive extent, the fusion of work and rights that Dobby looked for. We are no longer living in the decades-old era where house-elves were nothing more than oft-abused servants, for today we have, not only a lot more awareness, but the Ministry of Magic itself seeing to the fact that a house-elf not treated properly finds his or her justice. "

"As I have said before, by calling the rights of a race, a freedom they do not have, strips them of their rights in the first place. Let us not strip the house-elves of their real freedom: the freedom, not only to enjoy the fundamental right to humane treatment, but the right to work willingly, as they want to. House-elves, today, are a happy race, so let them claim the right to their happiness!"

He inclined his head at them all, making his way back to those not at the podium. At long, long last.... Final done. OHMYGOSH, THAT HAD BEEN SO SCARY!

Dani quietly listened to the others once more. Then said. "Well I would assume that if the House-elves had issues they would come to the Office and ask to be relocated. As they don't we can only assume that they are happy with their lives. To take them away from that would not be fair to them."

She thought for a moment. "What if we sent out evaluations to the elves to get their real feelings on the matter? Then we could determine which needed to be relocated and which were perfectly content." She figured that might satisfy both sides. If they came to a compromise it would help to actually get to the bottom of the issue in this debate.

It was a similar feeling to the one when that shy-looking Slytherin took the podium. Not to mention anything of Satine, who had cut half her own work in half by providing the core issue in their joint debating. With Diane, it did not feel like debating, why, maybe she should consider a career in story-telling...

She leaned nearer the girl named Kiri and attracted her attention by putting a hand over her shoulder. She just wished to say to her, "I liked your argument." She spoke in a whisper, encouraged her. The fact that she had taken the one posture no one else had, even when it was evident it was not her view, Diane considered that was worth some praise.

Yes, Diane was rather impressed with a couple of them very much. She chuckled at some others she wished she could respond to, like Williams or that boy, Fyodor. It was indeed a good twist, even if Diane tended to disagree on account of how old and modern times were or the allegory of a professor which could also work in her favor...

On the other hand, the last person to speak said something about visits... where did she heard that before?


OOC: This post is actually mostly to add this OOC note that I forgot in my last post, and because Diane already ran out of chances to speak. I wanted to clear out the information used in the last post was from Evocation and Demonology in Wikipedia. (Also, the 'Convents of Mothers' mentioned last HoM class was referring to Magdalene Laundries, which can also be found in wikipedia.) More in here and here.

William listened as Dani spoke, a soft smile on his face. While he agreed with some of the things she had said, he had to step up and say a bit more. "What if the house Elf couldn't go to the Office because of their masters? What would happen then? I know there's some wizards out there who are more than happy to keep their House elf in the dark, and that's how the elfs like it." he responded with a soft voice. He certainly didn't want to get her mad when it looked like he as totally saying stuff against the Office. which he wasn't. Okay, that George woman scared the chocolate frog out of him but he wasn't going to admit it.

"While I like your idea of sending off evaluations, I do think it could be a bad idea and give those Elfs who do want nothing to do with change a sense that you're trying to force them into it. You'll find a lot of the Elfs don't want to be re-located, they like it where they are. You'd only be causing them pain and suffering when they get an owl saying they need to be moved for their own good. What about giving them a choice instead? Instead of an evaluation you send each one a small message, thanking them for their years of wonderful service and ask what they want to do? You can't make them change, no one can." he said, fighting the urge to cross his arm even though he was completely agreeing with her.

William went on, now looking at everyone else as he placed his hands on the podium, his blue eyes bright. He had no idea what he was doing, or even if he was doing it right but hey he was trying. "We should just treat the House Elfs like we treat everyone else, let them decide what they want to do. They are beings with their own mnids and we certainly don't want a quarrel on your hands." he shuddered at the thought of a rebellion, which he thought would surely happen if someone tried doing what they thought was right.

Jack was almost done with his argument, and luckily for him, that one Slytherin boy that Daphne was hanging around with that one day in the common room stood up and gave him something to argue with. He listened to him speak intently before clearing his throat.

"You are definitely right in saying that House Elves are beings, just like us, with feelings and wants that should not be ignored. However, there is no reason for house elves to fear speaking out against oppression in today's Ministry. If there is nothing stopping them, then why aren't elves coming forward to speak out against the way things are? Because they're happy. They're doing the thing they love and finally under the rule of people who were brought up in a society that has been taught tolerance. Because we've cut out the root of the problem--cruel masters who think house elves are lesser creatures as filthy as a basilisk--and provided House Elves with safe and secure living conditions, they are finally free to do the thing that makes them happy, which is to serve wizards. In return, the new tolerant generation that now watches over these elves give them the respect they deserve and therefore, no reason to want a change."

"However, I would be ignorant to say that ALL house elves are in the houses of friendly, understanding masters. There are, of course, the few expections who still treat their house elves with cruelity. Perhaps we can establish a harsher punishment to the MASTER who commits such a crime by torturing their elf...therefore nothing changes for the elves and the families that are kind to them, but for those who are still unlucky enough to be under the roof of a cruel master, we're giving them a chance to get the same treatment as all the other elves. That, in my opinion, is not so much change as it is an improvement in the system. With that, every elf can feel as the majority of the elves do now--that change is not needed and things have far improved since the days of Harry Potter and the beginnings of SPEW. Thank you," he said finally, finishing up his speech and stepping away from the podium.

Alright, that hadn't been TOO bad. He had most likely contradicted himself a few times, and probably hadn't had VERY strong arguments but he had given it his best shot!

Shumeeta walked over to the podium. She wuz good at speakin' in public but she wuz not much of a debator. That meant - in case you're confused - that though the girl had no problems speakin' in front of an audience, she never had too many good points. But this wuz definitely a worth try wasn't it?

"I'm Shumeeta Leckter and em speaking on behalf of house elves who want change. For a long time, house elves have bin kept as servants, passed down from generation to generation like slaves. Well people, we all agreed ages ago that slavery is nothin' but a menace, so I think it's time we come out of our happy shells an' admit it's as much of a meanace for elves as it is considered for humans!"

"A lot of people say that today there are organizations as well as a division at the ministry of magic that are looking after house elves but while that may be true, you can't disagree they're not doin' all the good they should be doin' - the office of house elf relocation for instance, waits until a house elf contacts them an' honestly, the concept of servin' and being obedient to their masters is so deeply entrenched upon the mind of nearly every house elf that you just can't expect them to go to the ministry and take a stand!"

That hadn't bin too bad now. Shumeeta got off the podium, waitin' for someone to oppose her, or somethin' like that.

Dani nodded at William as he spoke. Then she replied, "Have you ever asked a house-elf if they're happy? By nature they have to say yes. No elf can speak bad about their master." She thought for a moment. "If they do, they feel the need to punish themself and after that if their master finds out they are usually punished again."

If only there was a way to make sure House-elves were going to good homes. "Think for a moment about someone you hate, that treats you horrible. Now imagine that every time you think badly about this person you have to poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick." She hoped it was a good analogy. "The Office of House-elf Relocation is there so that these creatures that have no rightful place in law or in society have a shot at a good life. Since they can't speak for themselves, the office attampts to speak up for their needs."

She had to add. "Of course, some of them like it the way it is, but most oif them know nothing of freedom and most of those are fearful of the misstreatment they will get if free. Giving them a way to speak out for their concerns is the only way to stop the mistreatment of House-elves!"

Torin listened to the argument Shumeeta was making and decided to speak up on his stance of things. "Shumeeta, you say that House Elves are slaves, but I don't think that's true really at all. For one thing, if they really were slaves, they would speak out don't you think? There is a difference between slaves and servants. House Elves are as much slaves as anyone's hired maid or butler. They like what they do and are happy caring for their masters."

He listened to her second point. "In a lot of cases, that is a result of loyalty that House Elves feel for their masters more than anything else. You say that they are too afraid to say anything, but I disagree. We feel loyalty to those close to us and so do they."

Wow, he was really bad at this debating stuff...

Oh good, opponent! Shumeeta went up to the podium again to face Torin. "As far as yer first comeback is concerned, it doesn't stand because while one may call house elves 'servants' to satisfy one's own self, it won't be true because house elves are not paid. They are considered more like slaves than servants, because any 'hired maid or butler' would not only demand a fee, but also refuse to work if not paid. House elves don't have that choice, they're not paid an' they've been made to think it's wrong to ask for payment for what they do."

Loyalty what? "Even the most loyal animals, when mistreated, leave their masters an' mistresses," Shumeeta said. "An' house elves are an entire race with intelligence! Isn't it strange that when they're mistreated, instead of leavin' the people they're workin' for, they just maintain silence?"

"The thing is, your last point isn't valid because loyalty really isn't an excuse for continuation of abuse. Abuse, even if it isn't acknowledged, remains abuse. It's not right, it's not nice and people who can do something about it MUST take the initiative to eliminate it. That's why I call for change!"

"You argue that they are slaves 'cause they don't get wages..They don't want wages. They are happy working like that. In fact, if you offered to give a House Elf money in almost all cases they would feel insulted." Slaves are slaves 'cause they feel injustice and a lack of respect. This is not the case with House Elves. The slavery card wasn't holding with him.

"You say abuse and I don't agree with that. I'd agree that there is no loyalty if that was the case, but it isn't. These Elves are given good homes and are in most cases treated with great respect. Yes, you can treat your servants with respect. And House Elves are servants."

Shumeeta raised an eyebrow. "But that's just the mindset we've made!" she said. "We're comfortable with the fact that they don't want wages, so we don't do anythin' about it. The truth is, humans don't want to do anything about it, because the present social setup is all for them and their benefits."

"You say house elves are servants, an' that in itself is a strange statement. A race that has beings with magic enough to survive on their own, are called "servants" and forced to work. They aren't given any chance to live their own lives an' do what they want, because they are YOUR servants. I ask you who gave you the right to make an entire race your 'servants'? That's worse than slavery! With your mindset you are not ruining the life of one, but endless!"

She had to go back now, but Shumeeta didn't think she had said enough. "Just imagine how hurtful it would be that, every time you even accidentally think bad of someone who has abused you, you have to go punish yourself! That's what is happenin' with house elves! Most of them have still to come out of their shell an' make an effort to stand up for themselves, even when they want to. If they're mistreated, all they can do about it is to mistreat themselves even more! I don't call that life - I call it a miserable existence."

"The truth is that house elves really do need change. Some of them may not want it, because they're scared and opressed. House elves are a race with a lot of intelligence an' they really don't need humans to survive. If it's work they can like, they can live in their own colonies and continue to work. But they should be given the freedom to think as they like. They're peaceful creatures an' I really don't think they'll make any trouble for anyone if they were allowed to live as they want to. We need to stop takin' house elves fo granted because they are not our eternal servants - in a sense, they are a people with a culture of their own!"

"If you tell house elves they can work, but they're not allowed to punish themselves, em sure no house elf would even want those orders to be reversed. That goes a long way to show that house elves really are in need of change. That's why Dobby is so famous - by challenging his day's social setup where house elves had not even the little importance they have today, he became the vehicle of great happenings. Without his assistance, Harry Potter might have been the Boy Who Unfortunately Died."

"Maybe fo now, house elves are not strong enough to demand change fo themselves, but if we speak up for them, show them we care, they'll be sure to join in because they need and deserve it. I am definitely waitin' fo the day when house elves will fight for house elf rights." She smiled at everyone and left the podium.

Cela stood up again to respond to some of Raiden's points, giving him a little grin before getting the snooty look-at-me-I-am-pretending-to-be-anti-house-elf look on her face.

"Raiden, one of the means for change is the inclination to change. If a house elf has no inclination towards changing their situation, and we ourselves are happy with them serving us, then whether or not they could initiate change on their own is irrelevant. Your example of Dobby is not a fair representation of elfkind. Dobby was mistreated, which directly effected his desire to serve that particular family. He became a free elf but still desired to to serve others, and transferred his loyalty to Harry Potter. This means that Dobby becoming the," Cela looked at her notes, "Crux of that change still relates directly to the basic nature and desire of the house elf to serve wizardkind."


Teehee.

"The question is, Raiden; if they have the right to want, as you have just recognised, does the fact that the vast majority do NOT want change, that the vast majority want most of all to serve us, mean that all house elves should want to be free or desire change? You represent the exception, not the norm and majority always rules. Laws should not be changed because of one elf is unhappy? I move that any elves that do wish for change are examined in their work environment to..."

What was a good word?

"... ascertain their motives for this so-called desire. How do we know it isn't brainwashing that is responsible? The negative influence of organisations such as S.P.E.W which are in actuality as much in support of house elf rights as Witches and Wizards that are against them for the simple fact that neither side find it important to find out what the house elves think about it all."

Cela took a breath and made a face at all the stuff she was saying, but for now she was done. She got the giggles and sat down.

"No, I say this because I know cases where that has happened. They don't want money. And I say servant in the sense of domestic staff, not as in one of people who are to be dominated over. There is a difference. And they don't want to live their own lives. You say that this is all a result of abuse, but it's really just how they are as creatures. It's in their natures. Just like it's in the natures of Werewolves to attack people. It's what they do, not a result of anything humans do to them."

He listened to everything else she had to say and didn't really know what else to add other than a few more points. "Well, if that's the case, how come S.P.E.W never was successful? It was started as a campaign for House Elves and look how that turned out. And I'll add that the House Elves that were tried to be freed in that case were treated with great respect and fairness by the Headmaster. Yet they still wanted to work. They were seen as cooks just like any school would have. Only difference is that they didn't want to get paid for it."

"I don't see any substantial proof that House Elves act in any way other than that which comes natural to them. And that goes for the self-injury aspect too - as unpleasant that is. It's just how they are as a magical creature and I see no real concrete evidence that says for a fact that they are brainwashed through abuse."