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Ameh 08-12-2009 08:46 AM
house elves that want change, post 2
 
SPOILER!!: Holy Crap Huge Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
William had listened intently not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. Honestly he didn't know what he was going to say, but he was going to do his best in saying it. Looking at Raiden he decided to speak up.

"Hello my name is William Cullack and I'm going to try to represent House-elves happy with the way things are. While i do agree with you on some things Raiden I have to disagree with you on a few points. One is that yes while Dobby did do his own thing, showing us that he is his own person, or being in this case, it still brought a lot of discord into the whole House Elf rights. I don't think that even if Dobby didn't do what he did it would have changed anything. Harry Potter still would have done what he did in some other way. Dobby could have disrupted him by doing what he did." William frowned. Oh dear he was horrible at this!

Sighing he continued, "I think that House elfs deserve to be left alone to do what they want. I mean how would you like it if someone, other than a professor or your parents told you to do something you didn't want to do? That you knew was wrong?" he paused, letting that sink in. "I think that if Dobby really understood what he was doing he would have done it differently, but I do agree with him being a free elf. and that should be the right of all house elfs. Let them make their mind up, they are sentient beings who deserve a lot more respect than what they get." he stopped, his voice lowering and gulped. Oh boy what
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lissy
Jack was almost done with his argument, and luckily for him, that one Slytherin boy that Daphne was hanging around with that one day in the common room stood up and gave him something to argue with. He listened to him speak intently before clearing his throat.

"You are definitely right in saying that House Elves are beings, just like us, with feelings and wants that should not be ignored. However, there is no reason for house elves to fear speaking out against oppression in today's Ministry. If there is nothing stopping them, then why aren't elves coming forward to speak out against the way things are? Because they're happy. They're doing the thing they love and finally under the rule of people who were brought up in a society that has been taught tolerance. Because we've cut out the root of the problem--cruel masters who think house elves are lesser creatures as filthy as a basilisk--and provided House Elves with safe and secure living conditions, they are finally free to do the thing that makes them happy, which is to serve wizards. In return, the new tolerant generation that now watches over these elves give them the respect they deserve and therefore, no reason to want a change."

"However, I would be ignorant to say that ALL house elves are in the houses of friendly, understanding masters. There are, of course, the few expections who still treat their house elves with cruelity. Perhaps we can establish a harsher punishment to the MASTER who commits such a crime by torturing their elf...therefore nothing changes for the elves and the families that are kind to them, but for those who are still unlucky enough to be under the roof of a cruel master, we're giving them a chance to get the same treatment as all the other elves. That, in my opinion, is not so much change as it is an improvement in the system. With that, every elf can feel as the majority of the elves do now--that change is not needed and things have far improved since the days of Harry Potter and the beginnings of SPEW. Thank you," he said finally, finishing up his speech and stepping away from the podium.

Alright, that hadn't been TOO bad. He had most likely contradicted himself a few times, and probably hadn't had VERY strong arguments but he had given it his best shot!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teggerz
Cela stood up again to respond to some of Raiden's points, giving him a little grin before getting the snooty look-at-me-I-am-pretending-to-be-anti-house-elf look on her face.

"Raiden, one of the means for change is the inclination to change. If a house elf has no inclination towards changing their situation, and we ourselves are happy with them serving us, then whether or not they could initiate change on their own is irrelevant. Your example of Dobby is not a fair representation of elfkind. Dobby was mistreated, which directly effected his desire to serve that particular family. He became a free elf but still desired to to serve others, and transferred his loyalty to Harry Potter. This means that Dobby becoming the," Cela looked at her notes, "Crux of that change still relates directly to the basic nature and desire of the house elf to serve wizardkind."

Teehee.

"The question is, Raiden; if they have the right to want, as you have just recognised, does the fact that the vast majority do NOT want change, that the vast majority want most of all to serve us, mean that all house elves should want to be free or desire change? You represent the exception, not the norm and majority always rules. Laws should not be changed because of one elf is unhappy? I move that any elves that do wish for change are examined in their work environment to..."

What was a good word?

"... ascertain their motives for this so-called desire. How do we know it isn't brainwashing that is responsible? The negative influence of organisations such as S.P.E.W which are in actuality as much in support of house elf rights as Witches and Wizards that are against them for the simple fact that neither side find it important to find out what the house elves think about it all."

Cela took a breath and made a face at all the stuff she was saying, but for now she was done. She got the giggles and sat down.


Merlin's strawberry-flavoured socks. Two other people had... responded to him. Raiden flinched slightly and stood again, giving Cela a bit of a pained look as he approached the front. He didn't like debating.

"William, I agree with you on a certain point. For the most part, house elves should be left alone to do as they please. However there are some that aren't allowed to do as they please, and those are the ones I'm speaking on behalf of. We keep grouping house elves all together and generalising them as a unit, when in fact they are separated into two different factions within their species: Those who are content, and those who want change." He looked to Jack Fritzera, his next point being addressed the other boy. "You say that because we've cut out the root of the problem, that being abusive masters, then there should be no want for change. But despite that being removed for the most part, it's possible that there is still a want for it. I do agree with your solution to house-elf abuse though. I think that punishments for the masters, and probably relocation of the abused house-elf, would be a good solution. The idea that there is nothing to fear by going to speak out about grievances to the Ministry is a bit flawed in that... well we've always had those who needed or wanted help and were too afraid or limited by their own personalities or pride to speak up. However, just because-" he looked at Celandine now, too - "- a majority of the elves are content doesn't mean that the few who wish for change should be ignored. To quote something old that I've forgotten the name of... 'What's popular is not always right, and what's right is not always popular.' Just because we believe it to be true does not make it true. After all, we used to believe that the earth was flat. Until we bother to explore the fact, we'll never know anything."

He looked at William again. "I disagree with your stance on Dobby, William." He bit his bottom lip and thought for a moment. "Had Dobby not given advance warning that something odd was going to be happening, and had he not shown up several times to warn Harry Potter... had he not been there and died that night, things could've and probably would've turned out very different." He looked next to Celandine. She'd spoken about... what had it been? Basic instinct to serve wizards or something... "Cela..." It was hard fighting her, because it was hard understanding her. "You make me feel dumb." He chewed a bit more on his bottom lip as he looked down at the paper in his hand. Words. They would be useful right now. There was only one thing he could think of to say. "You call for examinations in the workplace if they wish for change, to determine if maybe there were brainwashing or something of the like going on. You claim that they have no will to change, no inclination for it, but... then you go on to say that we've never asked them what they want. The brainwashing thing... I can't really comment on. If it's not what's behind their want for change, and then we have to ask them what they want which means that we don't completely know their basic nature nor their wants and needs, then doesn't that reverse your entire argument that they have no will or inclination to change? It might not be something they decided on, and there might be no real reason behind their sudden want for it, but if it's there, it's there. The basis behind my argument is that we should allow the house elves to do that which they please. If it pleases them to serve families, then by all means they should. But they should also be allowed, and know that they are allowed, the right to do that which they please whenever they please, and that they will not be looked down on for being a free elf or for leaving the service of a certain family. Their inclination to serve wizardkind could be changing, not en masse but little by little."

Now that he'd properly babbled and made no sense at Celandine, Jack and William, Raiden flushed bright red and hurried back to his seat.

((don't hold it against him. It's meeee that fails at having sensible thoughts.))

Hollister 08-12-2009 11:28 AM
House elves who are happy with the way things are. #1
 
As Miles walked up to the stand where he would be debating, he felt a few butterflies flutter around his stomach. Oh Merlin, please do not throw up. "H-Hello." He swallowed, gulping harshly once or twice before continuing. "I'm Miles Parker, and I'll be representing 'House-elves who are happy with the way things are.'" One more gulp. That should be enough.

"House-elves, as some people have pointed out, maybe the type of creature who have been bullied or pressured to believe what they believe. A lot of house-elves, a large majority, believe that they are here to serve. And, even though a lot of the wizarding community do give them the right to choose if they would like to be payed or not, or even not serve at all, they will choose to keep things the same, to serve us." Miles sighed, he felt a little confidence growing in him, which was always good.

"If house-elves were really desperate for change, or had had enough that it had angered them, they themselves would have said something by now. As someone said, they may be scared to. But, if it was really bothering them, they wouldn't have let it stop them and they would have spoken up. Their lifestyle is obviously not that terrible and we should let them speak for themselves, rather than having S.P.E.W campaign against things that the house-elves don't even support anyway."

TeafortheSoul 08-12-2009 10:39 PM
Witches and Wizards that do not support house elf rights #3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai Rai
a majority of the elves are content doesn't mean that the few who wish for change should be ignored. To quote something old that I've forgotten the name of... 'What's popular is not always right, and what's right is not always popular.' Just because we believe it to be true does not make it true. After all, we used to believe that the earth was flat. Until we bother to explore the fact, we'll never know anything."
Cela stood up again to finish her argument. "Just because we believe it to be true does not make it true, is exactly my point, though I'm being all generous and stuff with the 'we' part in saying that. So many people think they know what is best for others, in this case house elves, and we, the witches and wizards against house elf rights, do not care what is best for them unless it coincides with our own needs; that is why the house -elf relocation office exists, in order to take care of problem elves. Believing something may not have any real influence on if something is true or not, so we choose not to concern ourselves at all."

Lulz.

Okay maybe she was taking digs at her own side?

Quote:
Originally Posted by More Rai Rai
"You call for examinations in the workplace if they wish for change, to determine if maybe there were brainwashing or something of the like going on. You claim that they have no will to change, no inclination for it, but... then you go on to say that we've never asked them what they want. The brainwashing thing... I can't really comment on. If it's not what's behind their want for change, and then we have to ask them what they want which means that we don't completely know their basic nature nor their wants and needs, then doesn't that reverse your entire argument that they have no will or inclination to change? It might not be something they decided on, and there might be no real reason behind their sudden want for it, but if it's there, it's there. The basis behind my argument is that we should allow the house elves to do that which they please. If it pleases them to serve families, then by all means they should. But they should also be allowed, and know that they are allowed, the right to do that which they please whenever they please, and that they will not be looked down on for being a free elf or for leaving the service of a certain family. Their inclination to serve wizardkind could be changing, not en masse but little by little."
"It isn't necessary to ask about their will and inclination to serve, that is something they themselves are willing to tell and show without leading them in one direction or another." Cela answered, keeping it brief.

Eeeee. Okay. She wanted to give Raiden hugs.

Ahem.

"In conclusion, Witches and Wizards that do not support house elf rights have better things to do than worry about them. And I like, totally have better things to do than this so there."

Cel poked out her tongue then bounced away from the podium.

Golden Monkey 08-12-2009 11:05 PM
House-elves happy with the way things are Post #3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazypenguin (Post 8493951)
Dani nodded at William as he spoke. Then she replied, "Have you ever asked a house-elf if they're happy? By nature they have to say yes. No elf can speak bad about their master." She thought for a moment. "If they do, they feel the need to punish themself and after that if their master finds out they are usually punished again."

If only there was a way to make sure House-elves were going to good homes. "Think for a moment about someone you hate, that treats you horrible. Now imagine that every time you think badly about this person you have to poke yourself in the eye with a sharp stick." She hoped it was a good analogy. "The Office of House-elf Relocation is there so that these creatures that have no rightful place in law or in society have a shot at a good life. Since they can't speak for themselves, the office attampts to speak up for their needs."

She had to add. "Of course, some of them like it the way it is, but most oif them know nothing of freedom and most of those are fearful of the misstreatment they will get if free. Giving them a way to speak out for their concerns is the only way to stop the mistreatment of House-elves!"
Oh dear William was horrible that this but luckily he had only one more post then he could bounce away and hide for eternity. Why did it have to be debating, why oh why?!? Couldn't it just be the normal exam with questions and answers? He'd ace that no problem! He could see the 'F' floating in front of his face taunting him and laughing. no he couldn't think about that, he had to finish his arguments.

Turning to look at Dani once more he nodded, "Yes it is true that they have no choice but to punish themselves if they speak ill of their masters, but they do do it, they're not told too do it, they choose to do it. Of course there are those master, such as Mr. Lucius Malfoy who did tell his once servant Dobby to hit himself, but I don't count that as something that pertains to this." he stopped taking a breath. What was he saying again, purple bumblebee dancing in a lounge? No that made no sense. Oh right he was defending House elfs. Oh crud she was right; how was he goig to defend that? "Um..." he paused, frowning adorably as his forehead wobbled. "Ok, you're right. you win." he conceeded bowing his head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ameh (Post 8494190)

Merlin's strawberry-flavoured socks. Two other people had... responded to him. Raiden flinched slightly and stood again, giving Cela a bit of a pained look as he approached the front. He didn't like debating.

"William, I agree with you on a certain point. For the most part, house elves should be left alone to do as they please. However there are some that aren't allowed to do as they please, and those are the ones I'm speaking on behalf of. We keep grouping house elves all together and generalising them as a unit, when in fact they are separated into two different factions within their species: Those who are content, and those who want change." He looked to Jack Fritzera, his next point being addressed the other boy. "You say that because we've cut out the root of the problem, that being abusive masters, then there should be no want for change. But despite that being removed for the most part, it's possible that there is still a want for it. I do agree with your solution to house-elf abuse though. I think that punishments for the masters, and probably relocation of the abused house-elf, would be a good solution. The idea that there is nothing to fear by going to speak out about grievances to the Ministry is a bit flawed in that... well we've always had those who needed or wanted help and were too afraid or limited by their own personalities or pride to speak up. However, just because-" he looked at Celandine now, too - "- a majority of the elves are content doesn't mean that the few who wish for change should be ignored. To quote something old that I've forgotten the name of... 'What's popular is not always right, and what's right is not always popular.' Just because we believe it to be true does not make it true. After all, we used to believe that the earth was flat. Until we bother to explore the fact, we'll never know anything."

He looked at William again. "I disagree with your stance on Dobby, William." He bit his bottom lip and thought for a moment. "Had Dobby not given advance warning that something odd was going to be happening, and had he not shown up several times to warn Harry Potter... had he not been there and died that night, things could've and probably would've turned out very different." He looked next to Celandine. She'd spoken about... what had it been? Basic instinct to serve wizards or something... "Cela..." It was hard fighting her, because it was hard understanding her. "You make me feel dumb." He chewed a bit more on his bottom lip as he looked down at the paper in his hand. Words. They would be useful right now. There was only one thing he could think of to say. "You call for examinations in the workplace if they wish for change, to determine if maybe there were brainwashing or something of the like going on. You claim that they have no will to change, no inclination for it, but... then you go on to say that we've never asked them what they want. The brainwashing thing... I can't really comment on. If it's not what's behind their want for change, and then we have to ask them what they want which means that we don't completely know their basic nature nor their wants and needs, then doesn't that reverse your entire argument that they have no will or inclination to change? It might not be something they decided on, and there might be no real reason behind their sudden want for it, but if it's there, it's there. The basis behind my argument is that we should allow the house elves to do that which they please. If it pleases them to serve families, then by all means they should. But they should also be allowed, and know that they are allowed, the right to do that which they please whenever they please, and that they will not be looked down on for being a free elf or for leaving the service of a certain family. Their inclination to serve wizardkind could be changing, not en masse but little by little."

Now that he'd properly babbled and made no sense at Celandine, Jack and William, Raiden flushed bright red and hurried back to his seat.

((don't hold it against him. It's meeee that fails at having sensible thoughts.))
Oh dear chocolate frog in my pocket, give me the strength to not sound like an idiot he thought closing his eyes as Raiden responded to him. What could he say to that? Clearly he was out of his element. So, doing the only thing he could he puffed up his chest, stuck out his jaw and said. "I want a chocolate frog." before closing his mouth. Oops, that wasn't right. He couldn't even think right now, let alone debate! "I mean... err." he paused again frowning more. Can I have a lolly? he thought stupidly scrunching his eyes closed and puffing out a breath.

"Okay, let me get through this." he muttered to himself, tapping his fingers on the podium and biting his lip as he tried to think of what he could say. "I have no idea what I'm talking about right now. seriously I am all for what you say, I think the same way. I don't even know any house elfs so I can't speak for them, all I can do is speak for myself and what I believe in. I don't believe that all House Elfs should have no say, I think there should be a House elf in the Ministry, a elf who knows what is going on. That'll change a lot of things I think. Why isn't there a House elf in the Ministry anyway? I mean how is that freedom to do as they choose?" He paused again shaking his head. Oh dear he was digging himself a hole, yup.

"As for Dobby, you don't think that by what he did he didn't hinder anything? Don't get me wrong, I love Dobby, even though he's gone. He's a symbol for what you're debating about, but I just think he went about it the wrong way. Instead of telling Harry everything, why didn't he just tell Albus Dumbledore instead? Harry was just a small boy then he could have been killed, but I don't think Dobby thought of that, even though clearly he loved the boy. " another pause in which he continued biting his lip. "If he had just told Dumbledore, then things still would have worked out the same, but instead maybe he'd till be alive. and that's where my point come in, finally. i'm speaking for those Elfs who thought he was wrong by meddling with powers that be. The house elfs that like the way things are would never have done that. The House Elfs who I'm speaking of would go on abotu their daily lives, and when the time came, if they ever wanted to change then they'd change. " he stopped, his bottom lip quivering now as he realized he was going in circles. Is it time to go mommy he thought looking around. Hw was NOT going to cry here, no way.

"I should have stayed in bed today. I... I can't debate anymore." he muttered, "You win raiden." he added before stepping off the podium, a tear running down his cheek as he hastily wiped at his eyes.

Eep.

((Don't mind William, he's a but upset with debating))

dan arjay 08-13-2009 01:43 AM
House-elves happy with the way things are. post #3
 
Daniel stand for the third time. He was really up for the game now and he really wanted to make and reiterate the point of the house elves who wanted nothing more but to be of servitude to their master.

"Before I speak for the third time, I wanted to say that I also speak on the behalf of the house-elves I know. I own a two house-elves and they are the only family I know and they have been my company since the death of my father. I always talk to them and I treat them as my equal. I once asked them why do some house-elves need change or want them. They just say that they are just influenced by the wizards and persons around them." he paused a moment,"I get what they mean. House-elves really doesn't want change unless they are influenced by a wizard or witch. They will be asked to revolt against their master or ask for more than what is due. But without that encouragement they are happy."

"I mean they are always happy to be of service. And then these influences arise and poison their minds to want more. To be not contented with what they do or what they have. Try asking the house-elves what they really want and they will say to serve." he nodded at everyone and took a seat.

Daffy.Potter 08-13-2009 02:27 AM
House Elves For Change -- Post #1
 
Oh geez. Oh geez. Whyyyyy? Why must they do debates? It always got hot and intense... and nasty. No one likes that. And it always ends up in tears. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????????!!!!!!!!!! WHY?!

Buuuuuuuuuuuut.... they needed points. And this was a final so they were graded on this. Livvy was forced to pitch in.

Taking a deep breath, she stood up as she faced her doom.

"Even though some of the house elves are happy with the way things are... there are some that aren't. Some house elves aren't as fortunate to have pleasant masters and are forced into unfair labor. Even though they offer their services... it gives no one the right to treat them lower than an equal. They have feelings... they have a beating heart... so I don't see why they should be lesser than any of us," Livvy reasoned... her heart racing. Almost about to thump right out of her chest.

"They deserve to be able to voice their opinions and stand up for themselves and their rights. They deserve to be treated as equals.. because that's what they are! And the reason why none of them say anything is because of how differently each master treats their house elf. Some treat them just great.. but some treat them horribly. So they all have a different say in the matter. What I really think is important is to ask the house elves.. themselves. After all... this issue involves them... so they should have a say in the matter.. right? And... if some house elves enjoy serving their masters? That's... just... fine. But what about those that don't? What about those that don't like being treated like a good for nothing dirt bag?"

Yeah... just... just... just shut up Livvy. Don't talk anymore. She was going to make a fool of herself. She didn't even know if any of that made sense. Debates had that effect on her. SEE! Debates were mean... evil... sneaky... and hazardous.

feeheeheeny 08-13-2009 02:36 AM
House elves that want change #1
 
Becca was taking in everyone's responses to make her decision on what she wanted to support. Lainey's opinion of house elves and her love of animals made her indecisive - she wasn't really sure what to believe. But, after hearing the discussions of many of her classmates, Becca stood up and took her spot.

"Hey. My name is Becca Parker and I'm supporting house elves that want change. I think that many house elves have no idea how much different things could be, but the ones that DO realize things could be different are too afraid to stand up for themselves and flat out tell wizards, 'Hey, this isn't right!' Y'know? I think house elves should have a choice - to work for wizards if they want, or... to not. But they shouldn't be forced to and brainwashed into thinking it's what's best."

She paused to look around at the class. "Yeah, sure, they're helpful and all, but they just shouldn't be forced to do something they don't want to do. Like, if they have a horrible master they shouldn't be forced to stay and suffer! Look at goblins and house elves for a moment. They look sort of similar, right? And maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but they both talk and are capable of doing many, many things! So I say we give house elves a chance and let them choose what they want to do! House elves for change! YEEEAH!"

She thought she was cool.

Angie 08-13-2009 02:40 AM
House-elves happy with the way things are? Yes? Yes. Post #1
 
This entire discussion was beyond ridiculous. Why were they wasting their time talking about house elves? There was no absolutely no point on keep discussing it, really, and people should just learn to agree to disagree. It was funny, though, how worked up some people was getting over this.

But it was more ridiculous than funny. By far.

So, she rolled her forest green eyes at the whole thing.

However, she was supposed to pick some kind of side. Right? Uh, this is what happens when you get distracted - you have no idea what you are supposed to do.

Oh, well.

"While I do believe that ... " What's-his-name? The house elf who was freed by Potter? Dotty? Bobby? DOBBY! " ... Dobby," Ridiculous name, in Willow's opinion, "had every right to be free since he was not pleased with the way he was being treated," Not really, but whatever, "I honestly believe he was just the exception to the rule." After pausing for a little bit Willow kept going, "It just seems illogical to me that the way they are treated should change just because a few elves are unhappy." And with a few, she meant only one - Bobby the Free Elf, and he was dead, so clearly, being free didn't suit those creatues. "It's just in their nature to serve wizards - they want to serve us, it's what they are here for, and if that makes them happy, why should we change that?" Willow shrugged, "Not to mention that quite honestly, I have better things to do with my time than wasting my time trying to give them rights. They are happy with how things are, so let them be." And with that, the girl took seat again and resumed

Cristygen 08-13-2009 02:40 AM
House elves who are happy. #1
 
Sara gulped. Public speaking. She hated public speaking. She was very shy, so speaking in front of the whole class was definitely not on top of her favorite things to do.

Heart beating fast and sweating like a bullet, she stood up to the podium, took a deep breath and started speaking.

"Hello everyone. My name is Sara and um, I'm here to speak out on behalf of House-elves who are happy with things the way they are." Sara swallowed and continued. "House-elves have been in this position for centuries and who are we to change that? They are born to serve wizards, and not only born, they are happy to do it. All their lives revolves around making their master happy. As long as their master is happy, they are happy. I ask again, who are we to change that and take away that happiness they feel. I say, let them do what they want. If it's to spend their lifetime serving us the so be it." She finishes for now with a form nod of her head.

feeheeheeny 08-13-2009 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristygen (Post 8496389)
Sara gulped. Public speaking. She hated public speaking. She was very shy, so speaking in front of the whole class was definitely not on top of her favorite things to do.

Heart beating fast and sweating like a bullet, she stood up to the podium, took a deep breath and started speaking.

"Hello everyone. My name is Sara and um, I'm here to speak out on behalf of House-elves who are happy with things the way they are." Sara swallowed and continued. "House-elves have been in this position for centuries and who are we to change that? They are born to serve wizards, and not only born, they are happy to do it. All their lives revolves around making their master happy. As long as their master is happy, they are happy. I ask again, who are we to change that and take away that happiness they feel. I say, let them do what they want. If it's to spend their lifetime serving us the so be it." She finishes for now with a form nod of her head.
Becca spotted her challenger - picking a friend to debate with would be easy. "Sara, they're only born to serve wizards because WE make it that way. When was the last time you had a conversation with a bunch of house elves and asked them what they were feeling? If they were happy with the way things were, REALLY? And for those that are happy, what if it's just because they don't know any better?

"Generations upon generations of house elves have been brainwashed into thinking that it's their only purpose in life, to serve wizarding families. Only because we make it that way. You say let them do what they want, but what about those that are unhappy? Their masters are dreadful, abusive people... and all those house elves ever do is fake their happiness in wanting to serve them because they think they HAVE to?"

Crystal Ball 08-13-2009 02:54 AM
House Elves Happy With The Way Things Are, Post 1
 
Looking at her notes, Mari thought for a few moments, mentally going on over how she intended to win this debate.


Yes, she wanted to win. She liked winning, even if she didn't really care for the topic. She was going to totally prove that...she glanced at her topic. Oh yes, that house elves were perfectly happy doing what the did. Yes.


Clearing her throat, she spoke after a few other classmates did. " If you're so enthusiastic about letting house elves choose change, why can't we also be enthusiastic about letting them resolve to stay in servitude? There was a house elf," Mari thought a moment. " Kreacher. He served the Black family for ages, and was never more pleased to know he was serving them the family that he had probably known his whole life." She paused, then continued." To take that away from him, or try to even force supposed freedom on him would be quite terrible, quite terrible indeed." She said. " If he were alive today, that is." She said quickly. " His case was slightly extreme, but I agree with Sara, we should not try to enforce a change on all elves if it will not please all of them, right?" She asked, giving the other slightly lonely side (they only had one supporter as of that moment,) a chance to argue their point.

Hermione_loves_Ron 08-13-2009 02:58 AM
House Elves That Are Happy With the Way Things Are #1
 
Moving to the front of the room, Issy tried to straighten her tiny stance to appear bigger, or at least a bit closer to the heights of the students around her. Nonetheless, this final, she knew, would be easy. Speaking was hardly a problem for her, nor was public speaking; the more the merrier, she believed.

"My name is Isabella Cortella," the small girl introduced herself, choosing to be former, and I am here representing the group of House Elves That Are Happy With the Way Things Are. I've had a fortunate chances to speak with some House Elves before and one in particular stands out in my mind. Schmoop has always been eager to please and happy to make other students happy. Like adults of the wizarding world, Schmoop has a job, and he sees to it. So many people often demand that elves be given the same rights as we and that they be treated like we are, but the truth is, House Elves are not people.

"We have not enslaved House-Elves, for they are merely tending to a job that has been a part of their lives, of their creature for years upon years upon years. Why else are they called House-Elves, if not to tend to the house? Schmoop wears a smile as he cleans and I remember being a younger Ravenclaw and coming down into the Common Room to find cookies upon the table. Did anyone ever force this elf to bake those cookies for us? No! He chose to do so out of his own free will!

"Yes, there are so people who are merciless to their Elves and mistreat them and abuse them. But, sadly, there are people who mistreat and abuse their own pets and even their own animals. There are many humans who believe that House Elves have no worth, but you can't change people's minds. The same can be said of people who say a dog is just a dog, instead of those who think that dog's have feelings just as humans do.

"Why bother attempting to fix what is not broken? House Elves are HAPPY. Certainly, the history shows us Elves such as Dobby, who were pleased with their freedom. But had we not also heard of Winky who was terrified by the idea of freedom, who felt that her job was her job? Even Algamus, who dislikes students, knows his job and WANTS to do his jobs. Change will only upset these creatures and already we know they enjoy their jobs. Did we not witness the fit that Schmoop had upon hearing students refer to House Elves as being enslaved? This is their life! This is what they do! This is what they LOVE."

Cristygen 08-13-2009 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grangerfn1 (Post 8496411)
Becca spotted her challenger - picking a friend to debate with would be easy. "Sara, they're only born to serve wizards because WE make it that way. When was the last time you had a conversation with a bunch of house elves and asked them what they were feeling? If they were happy with the way things were, REALLY? And for those that are happy, what if it's just because they don't know any better?

"Generations upon generations of house elves have been brainwashed into thinking that it's their only purpose in life, to serve wizarding families. Only because we make it that way. You say let them do what they want, but what about those that are unhappy? Their masters are dreadful, abusive people... and all those house elves ever do is fake their happiness in wanting to serve them because they think they HAVE to?"
Sara looked at Becca as she explained. She had to admit, she did raise a few good points but it's not like she was going to tell her that.

"Well, all the house-elves I've encountered are perfectly happy with the way things are. I actually suggested to one the idea of being freed from their masters and I can tell you this, the response I got was not a pretty one. I can tell you they are perfectly happy with the way things are and I don't see the need to change it. It's in their nature to be that way. I'm not saying that they deserve to be abused by the masters. I'm actually against that. But since they are happy to serve us, I for one don't think that should change."

Daffy.Potter 08-13-2009 03:02 AM
House Elves For Change -- Post #2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Ball (Post 8496419)
Looking at her notes, Mari thought for a few moments, mentally going on over how she intended to win this debate.


Yes, she wanted to win. She liked winning, even if she didn't really care for the topic. She was going to totally prove that...she glanced at her topic. Oh yes, that house elves were perfectly happy doing what the did. Yes.


Clearing her throat, she spoke after a few other classmates did. " If you're so enthusiastic about letting house elves choose change, why can't we also be enthusiastic about letting them resolve to stay in servitude? There was a house elf," Mari thought a moment. " Kreacher. He served the Black family for ages, and was never more pleased to know he was serving them the family that he had probably known his whole life." She paused, then continued." To take that away from him, or try to even force supposed freedom on him would be quite terrible, quite terrible indeed." She said. " If he were alive today, that is." She said quickly. " His case was slightly extreme, but I agree with Sara, we should not try to enforce a change on all elves if it will not please all of them, right?" She asked, giving the other slightly lonely side (they only had one supporter as of that moment,) a chance to argue their point.
Oh dear. A Ravenclaw. But it's cool... it's cool. And Livvy wanted to find someone to... debate nicely with. No harm no foul... she could do it... she could do it. Debates were fun sometimes. Not when you lost though.

So she spoke up once more. Yes... she spoke up. "Well... what I think... is that we should let them choose. I think we should let the house elves choose their own life and what they want for themselves. That's true... uhm... Mari... that some house elves have dedicated their entire life towards their master and serving them. But there are some house elves that don't share the same ideas.

"I agree... we shouldn't force house elves to change their lives. But I think we should give them the opportunity to change their lives... if they want to. If they wanna serve their masters... fine. Let 'em. If they want to do something else instead of being a servant... then I think we should let them. We don't force each other to do things we don't want right? And right now... we're not giving them the opportunity. And I think that we need to change that. Because house elves have every right to do what they want."

feeheeheeny 08-13-2009 03:07 AM
House elves want chaaange! #3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cristygen (Post 8496428)
Sara looked at Becca as she explained. She had to admit, she did raise a few good points but it's not like she was going to tell her that.

"Well, all the house-elves I've encountered are perfectly happy with the way things are. I actually suggested to one the idea of being freed from their masters and I can tell you this, the response I got was not a pretty one. I can tell you they are perfectly happy with the way things are and I don't see the need to change it. It's in their nature to be that way. I'm not saying that they deserve to be abused by the masters. I'm actually against that. But since they are happy to serve us, I for one don't think that should change."
Becca shook her head, "Okay, yes, the one you talked to wasn't happy with the idea of being freed. But how do you know they're not all like that? As other people have stated, Dobby the house elf wasn't happy. And you cannot just say he's the only one. If there's one house elf unhappy, there's more. I can guarantee that. He was abused by his master, and there are plenty of wicked wizards in the world that I'm sure treat their house elves like dirt.

"I just want you to see that there are house elves out there that aren't happy with the way things are, Sara, and they should be able to choose whether they're our slaves or not. It's just not right. The ones you've talked to and met are happy because they don't know any better. They don't know the freedom they could possibly have! It's unfair, and completely ridiculous." She made a face. Free will for all!

Hermione_loves_Ron 08-13-2009 03:10 AM
Post #2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy.Potter (Post 8496432)
Oh dear. A Ravenclaw. But it's cool... it's cool. And Livvy wanted to find someone to... debate nicely with. No harm no foul... she could do it... she could do it. Debates were fun sometimes. Not when you lost though.

So she spoke up once more. Yes... she spoke up. "Well... what I think... is that we should let them choose. I think we should let the house elves choose their own life and what they want for themselves. That's true... uhm... Mari... that some house elves have dedicated their entire life towards their master and serving them. But there are some house elves that don't share the same ideas.

"I agree... we shouldn't force house elves to change their lives. But I think we should give them the opportunity to change their lives... if they want to. If they wanna serve their masters... fine. Let 'em. If they want to do something else instead of being a servant... then I think we should let them. We don't force each other to do things we don't want right? And right now... we're not giving them the opportunity. And I think that we need to change that. Because house elves have every right to do what they want."

Turning to a fellow Ravenclaw, Issy arched a brow with curious intent.

"Pardon me," she began, "but what else would a House-Elf do with their life? Do you realize that many Elves fear being freed? Their whole lives, they have done this. This is their life! What good is freedom if they've nothing good to do with it? Few people will ever hire an elf, and few people will have tasks besides cooking and cleaning for elves to tend to. Even with those masters who mistreat them, an elf doesn't think bad of it, because this is all they know. If we gave them the freedom to leave, how many elves do you really think would leave? Few Elves think outside the box enough to even comprehend freedom."

Issy shook her head. Yes, it was sad and unfortunate and she did feel bad for the Elves, but this was all they knew. She hardly imagined that given freedom and the opportunity to leave, the Elves would take such a bait. After all, when all they'd done their life was cook and clean and keep House, the concept of having freedom was unimaginable.

"Do you know, that centuries ago, when the American South freed their slaves, many had nowhere to go, no way to keep themselves? Were do you propose Elves who have been freed are going to sleep? To eat? How do you propose they are to survive?"

Cristygen 08-13-2009 03:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grangerfn1 (Post 8496440)
Becca shook her head, "Okay, yes, the one you talked to wasn't happy with the idea of being freed. But how do you know they're not all like that? As other people have stated, Dobby the house elf wasn't happy. And you cannot just say he's the only one. If there's one house elf unhappy, there's more. I can guarantee that. He was abused by his master, and there are plenty of wicked wizards in the world that I'm sure treat their house elves like dirt.

"I just want you to see that there are house elves out there that aren't happy with the way things are, Sara, and they should be able to choose whether they're our slaves or not. It's just not right. The ones you've talked to and met are happy because they don't know any better. They don't know the freedom they could possibly have! It's unfair, and completely ridiculous." She made a face. Free will for all!
"Okay, you found one that was unhappy, Now I ask you a question. How do you know that he is not the only one? And I have to say, house-elves like him are few and far between. I believe that the majority rules and if the majority of house-elves are happy with the way things are, then they should respect that and not change. Just because one or two percent are unhappy we should make the other 98% unhappy just to make those few happy? That doesn't sounds fair to me and I have a feeling that doesn't fair to you either." Sara finished her statement. Hopefully the message was delivered and hopefully some marks will come her way.

She smiled at Becca, hoping she new this was just for class.

Crystal Ball 08-13-2009 03:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy.Potter (Post 8496432)
Oh dear. A Ravenclaw. But it's cool... it's cool. And Livvy wanted to find someone to... debate nicely with. No harm no foul... she could do it... she could do it. Debates were fun sometimes. Not when you lost though.

So she spoke up once more. Yes... she spoke up. "Well... what I think... is that we should let them choose. I think we should let the house elves choose their own life and what they want for themselves. That's true... uhm... Mari... that some house elves have dedicated their entire life towards their master and serving them. But there are some house elves that don't share the same ideas.

"I agree... we shouldn't force house elves to change their lives. But I think we should give them the opportunity to change their lives... if they want to. If they wanna serve their masters... fine. Let 'em. If they want to do something else instead of being a servant... then I think we should let them. We don't force each other to do things we don't want right? And right now... we're not giving them the opportunity. And I think that we need to change that. Because house elves have every right to do what they want."
Mariska turned towards...Livvy? Yes. Livvy was her name. She nodded, taking in the other girls opinion quickly and then gathering her own thoughts. " Some house elves might want freedom yes, but isn't it up to their masters, the ones that house them and feed them, provide basic necessities," she emphasized all of this, her green eyes slightly wide. " To decide whether or not to give that?" She closed her eyes a moment; She was off topic. " At any rate, giving the option for freedom might involve some people turning their house elves out onto the street, after all, freedom for the house elf is earned by the master giving them clothes. Isn't it safe to assume that some people might simply rid themselves of a house elf they can't afford anymore by giving them freedom?" She said. " Some house elves might be happy with the way things are because this way, they're guaranteed a home." she said, waiting for the next challenger with a small smile.

Rosa Chispa Princessa 08-13-2009 03:27 AM
Wizards Against House Elf Rights Post 1
 
Herminny was a bit hesitant to get up at and do public speaking and debate but as she saw a surge of Ravenclaws and decided to take the podium and knowing full well just how close the race was between Ravenclaw and Gryffindor and felt she had to atleast try. She made her way up to the podium and said, "Hi, I'm Herminny and I am taking the veiw point of wizards against house elf rights. Well here I go. Okay to start if house elfs did'nt want to serve us would'nt they have complained about it a long time ago. I mean it's been going on for centuries with little to no complaints or problems.
Why should things have to change for all the wizards with houseelves just cause some of them don't wanna do what they were born and obligated to do which is serve us and thats just the way it is. House elves have been in my family for centuries and I don't think it's right things change now when 1, my house elves like and want to serve my family and 2, my ancestors had these houseelves and taking them awy is like taking away my personal property which is'nt right.".

Daffy.Potter 08-13-2009 03:28 AM
House Elves For CHAAANNGGGE! -- Post #3
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermione_loves_Ron (Post 8496445)
Turning to a fellow Ravenclaw, Issy arched a brow with curious intent.

"Pardon me," she began, "but what else would a House-Elf do with their life? Do you realize that many Elves fear being freed? Their whole lives, they have done this. This is their life! What good is freedom if they've nothing good to do with it? Few people will ever hire an elf, and few people will have tasks besides cooking and cleaning for elves to tend to. Even with those masters who mistreat them, an elf doesn't think bad of it, because this is all they know. If we gave them the freedom to leave, how many elves do you really think would leave? Few Elves think outside the box enough to even comprehend freedom."

Issy shook her head. Yes, it was sad and unfortunate and she did feel bad for the Elves, but this was all they knew. She hardly imagined that given freedom and the opportunity to leave, the Elves would take such a bait. After all, when all they'd done their life was cook and clean and keep House, the concept of having freedom was unimaginable.

"Do you know, that centuries ago, when the American South freed their slaves, many had nowhere to go, no way to keep themselves? Were do you propose Elves who have been freed are going to sleep? To eat? How do you propose they are to survive?"
Oh dear. Livvy hadn't thought this through. The girl had caught her... and stumped her. What would house-elves do other than the servant life? She had to think. Think Livvy think. Be smart. What could they do?

Returning the her fellow house mate, Livvy replied, "That's a good question." Do it! Do it! "Like I said... they should have a choice. If they don't want to be freed and wish to continue on serving their master... they should be allowed to do that. And what could they do? I'll tell you what they could do, love. They could do many things..." Liiike?

"I think they should be allowed to do things that us wizards and witches do. They should be allowed to run a shop or something or work in the Ministry. Communication between us and House-Elves is essential, because who's to say that they won't revolt against us for not acknowledging them and their feelings." Yes. That's good so far.

Livvy chuckled lightly with a hint of bitterness. Oh dear... debates were so evil and affective. "Why do you think they can't comprehend? Because we don't tell them how freedom is like. We don't explain to them what it's like as a free Elf... rather than being a servant. Why? Communication. We don't... tell... them... anything." Intense.... intense............... INTENSE!

Oh crud. What's with this girl and her very difficult questions?

"I propose that the Ministry should do its job and step in to help the House-Elves. Since they hadn't done really done much about this issue in the past. We, outside of the Ministry, can help too. Provide housing for them... help them find jobs... I think we need to have a division in the Ministry that will communicate and help the House-Elves. At this moment... they're like children. Used to how things are.... yet sometimes unsatisfied. And we should teach them like a parent... how life is outside serving their masters. What I think is we should inform them and tell them everything about freedom. And if they wish to be freed... we should respect their decisions. If they don't want to... then we respect their decision all the same. All I'm saying is that they should have a right to choose how they want to live their life. Is that really too difficult?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Ball
Mariska turned towards...Livvy? Yes. Livvy was her name. She nodded, taking in the other girls opinion quickly and then gathering her own thoughts. " Some house elves might want freedom yes, but isn't it up to their masters, the ones that house them and feed them, provide basic necessities," she emphasized all of this, her green eyes slightly wide. " To decide whether or not to give that?" She closed her eyes a moment; She was off topic. " At any rate, giving the option for freedom might involve some people turning their house elves out onto the street, after all, freedom for the house elf is earned by the master giving them clothes. Isn't it safe to assume that some people might simply rid themselves of a house elf they can't afford anymore by giving them freedom?" She said. " Some house elves might be happy with the way things are because this way, they're guaranteed a home." she said, waiting for the next challenger with a small smile.
"Like I said... they still have a right to choose what they want. They're not some... animal that we can control. And again... I think we should actually... communicate with them... ACTUALLY inform them how things can be. The advantages and the disadvantages. They can weigh their options and decide how they want to live their own life," Livvy replied to the girl with the creepy smile.

ooc//continued in next post...

Hermione_loves_Ron 08-13-2009 03:30 AM
Post #3
 
"I conclude," stated Issy, wishing that she'd had notes after all, but conclusions were always the hardest bit. "House Elves are happy with the way things are. This is what they know, what they love, what they aim for. An unhappy Elf would revolt; they have magic that even witches and wizards can only dream to possess. Very few Elves even desire freedom, and given that freedom... what are they to do? Where will they live? How will they eat? Stay safe and warm?

"House Elves strive to make us happy and we should do the same. If they are happy with the way their lives are, can we not aim to please them? This is not a matter of changing. This is a matter of US changing our mindset, and letting House Elves be as they are. To be happy. To serve. To please us and themselves.

"Thank you for listening."

With a curtsy and a hurried conclusion, Issy scuttled of to the side.

Angie 08-13-2009 03:40 AM
House-elves happy with the way things are Post #2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy.Potter (Post 8496477)
"Like I said... they still have a right to choose what they want. They're not some... animal that we can control. And again... I think we should actually... communicate with them... ACTUALLY inform them how things can be. The advantages and the disadvantages. They can weigh their options and decide how they want to live their own life," Livvy replied to the girl with the creepy smile.
"But that's the whole point, Olivia," Started Willow, standing up once again, "They do not one or need more options - they'd get offended if you did so much as telling them than being free is a good thing! They find that offensive! They would instantly jump into the conclusion that the only reason why you want to free them is because they ... well, suck." Seriously, this was such a pointless discussion. House elves had lived this way for centuries and just because Tobby the Free elf had decided and Granger What's-her-name said they'd like things to be different, they were all having this discussion.

Thanks a lot, Bobby and Granger. "Anyway, it's just their nature to serve us; it makes them happy. Would you like it if someone came and questioned you for doing things that make you happy even though other people might find them improper? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing for them." And with that, she took seat again.

Daffy.Potter 08-13-2009 03:48 AM
Con'd for fuuun. CHANGE! -dances- #4
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oesed (Post 8496498)
"But that's the whole point, Olivia," Started Willow, standing up once again, "They do not one or need more options - they'd get offended if you did so much as telling them than being free is a good thing! They find that offensive! They would instantly jump into the conclusion that the only reason why you want to free them is because they ... well, suck." Seriously, this was such a pointless discussion. House elves had lived this way for centuries and just because Tobby the Free elf had decided and Granger What's-her-name said they'd like things to be different, they were all having this discussion.

Thanks a lot, Bobby and Granger. "Anyway, it's just their nature to serve us; it makes them happy. Would you like it if someone came and questioned you for doing things that make you happy even though other people might find them improper? No, you wouldn't. It's the same thing for them." And with that, she took seat again.
They doooooo? Well that's a morbid thought. Livvy blinked at her Quidditch Captain as she listened to the older girl talk. She stood up. Oh geez. She was gonna stand up against Willow. Quidditch Captain. Bone Crusher. Scary woman. GUUUULP.

"Welll... how do you know that they'd be offended? Have you asked them about that before? Or is it just an assumption? Is this speculation based off one House-Elf's opinion... or more? Who's to say that all their opinions are the same?" Livvy asked, curiously. She was sooooo dead. Willow was gonna keeel her or something. She was cool... nice an' all... but scary...

Again. How does she know? "How do you know that serving us makes them happy? How do you know that all of them are happy with how things are? Have you questioned any of them about this?" Questions... questions... questions... here and there!

Crystal Ball 08-13-2009 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy.Potter (Post 8496477)
Oh dear. Livvy hadn't thought this through. The girl had caught her... and stumped her. What would house-elves do other than the servant life? She had to think. Think Livvy think. Be smart. What could they do?

Returning the her fellow house mate, Livvy replied, "That's a good question." Do it! Do it! "Like I said... they should have a choice. If they don't want to be freed and wish to continue on serving their master... they should be allowed to do that. And what could they do? I'll tell you what they could do, love. They could do many things..." Liiike?

"I think they should be allowed to do things that us wizards and witches do. They should be allowed to run a shop or something or work in the Ministry. Communication between us and House-Elves is essential, because who's to say that they won't revolt against us for not acknowledging them and their feelings." Yes. That's good so far.

Livvy chuckled lightly with a hint of bitterness. Oh dear... debates were so evil and affective. "Why do you think they can't comprehend? Because we don't tell them how freedom is like. We don't explain to them what it's like as a free Elf... rather than being a servant. Why? Communication. We don't... tell... them... anything." Intense.... intense............... INTENSE!

Oh crud. What's with this girl and her very difficult questions?

"I propose that the Ministry should do its job and step in to help the House-Elves. Since they hadn't done really done much about this issue in the past. We, outside of the Ministry, can help too. Provide housing for them... help them find jobs... I think we need to have a division in the Ministry that will communicate and help the House-Elves. At this moment... they're like children. Used to how things are.... yet sometimes unsatisfied. And we should teach them like a parent... how life is outside serving their masters. What I think is we should inform them and tell them everything about freedom. And if they wish to be freed... we should respect their decisions. If they don't want to... then we respect their decision all the same. All I'm saying is that they should have a right to choose how they want to live their life. Is that really too difficult?"



"Like I said... they still have a right to choose what they want. They're not some... animal that we can control. And again... I think we should actually... communicate with them... ACTUALLY inform them how things can be. The advantages and the disadvantages. They can weigh their options and decide how they want to live their own life," Livvy replied to the girl with the creepy smile.

ooc//continued in next post...
Mari nodded, biting her lip slightly as Livvy pointed out that house elves were not animals. " I agree with you there, I'm simply saying some house elves would rather have things stay the way they are." She told the other girl, catching the girls somewhat impassioned response to her earlier words. " Sometimes though it is better to leave things as they are rather than change it all with the hopes that some might be happy with the change...because the number of those dissatisfied with the changes will more than likely be higher." She said. " But perhaps we can agree that the..option for both should be available." she said conceding a tiny, tiny amount of defeat. " Overall though it would be much easier to just leave things as they are when it's been done that way for so long." She said, giving a little nod to indicate she was done, her debating finished.

Angie 08-13-2009 03:57 AM
Post THREE
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy.Potter (Post 8496517)
They doooooo? Well that's a morbid thought. Livvy blinked at her Quidditch Captain as she listened to the older girl talk. She stood up. Oh geez. She was gonna stand up against Willow. Quidditch Captain. Bone Crusher. Scary woman. GUUUULP.

"Welll... how do you know that they'd be offended? Have you asked them about that before? Or is it just an assumption? Is this speculation based off one House-Elf's opinion... or more? Who's to say that all their opinions are the same?" Livvy asked, curiously. She was sooooo dead. Willow was gonna keeel her or something. She was cool... nice an' all... but scary...

Again. How does she know? "How do you know that serving us makes them happy? How do you know that all of them are happy with how things are? Have you questioned any of them about this?" Questions... questions... questions... here and there!
... Because it's so obvious? Had shen ot noticed Schmoop's behaviour?

Olivia must have been sleeping during the last History of Magic Class.

"Did you not see Schmoop's behaviour during our last class? He is HAPPY to serve us and was truly offended by the idea of us thinking of them as slaves, which has me thinking that they would be also offended by us setting them free? It's an assumption, really, and yes, I've only heard from one house elve that they actually LOVE serving us, but then, isn't B-Dobby the only known house elf that ever expressed his desire to be free?" Stated the girl, raising one of her eyebrows at Olivia, "So I suppose we are even? I heard it from one house elf that the enjoyed serving us, just like you heard from one house elf that they would want to be free."

And that was it, right? She had nothing else to add. "Thank you." Cue Willow taking seat again.


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